BTW, my bad on the cost, the Surly is a bargain in comparison. I posted that too hastily without proofreading. I stand though, that for value quality and intangibles, the Surly is still what I'd purchase of the two and then I'd put better components on the Surly and come up with a total sum of parts ride that would be preferrable to sinking all my money into a frame that has no suspension. I mean fatter 700c tires are going to offset any perception that one frame rides better than the other. I'd rather ride a touring/road geared bike that distance over a SS/FG track bike and "thenomad" comes out and suggests that in his post.