Originally Posted by
pamaguahiker
Hey Frogbutter,
Good find! Please don't look at the following paragraph as criticism...just a warning. The topic of Libertas has been well spoken on the CR list as well but, just a little info that i know.
Word of caution on the Libertas bicycle. They were a product of paris sport?, correct me if i am wrong guys. But that was the Frayse's business, as in mike frayse. They imported 'european" model bicycles. They imported Libertas, Flying Dutchman, and Aquila (not to be mistaken for Aquilla). These frames were made in South America. The frames on some were very well made with nice brazing and all. Why they claimed Euro...probably just to make it sound better but in all, i would have more respect if they stated up front the truth. Funny part is, they were supposedly made in the Luxembelgiumetc regions. The Aquila was stated to be Italian. My understanding from some framebuilders in Poland that i know, the Aquila were actually made in the Flemish style...Belgium. I guess it shows just how far a tale will be spun if they think more sales would come from the story. I picked up a batch of Libertas framesets for $30 each years ago and built them up into inexpensive fixies. Jack Van Gent was the seller at $30 each and he was the source of much of the history of origins of the frames. They were well made and made for some fun bicycles. I set them up as cheap fixies and sourced them out years ago at Trexlertown for trainers to various people. But i can tell you they were labeled 531 and that was just a flat fib. They def were not 531. It would surprise me greatly to hear if i was wrong, and i hope for this fluke that i am wrong. Who knows, maybe in that batch a tubing set about in S.A., there were a few 531 and someone used them. There may have been a time where the Libertas frames were Belgian related but i know the bulk in the states originated from south of the border. I have never come across a Belgian made Libertas. Maybe Jack Van Gent's may be the only Belgium connection, in his name.
Walter
That is pretty interesting. I am working on a Limongi built Paris Sport frame and have been researching Fraysse quite a bit. I have read a few articles and spoken to former team racers, camp visitors etc. and find the whole "scene" to be quite interesting. 'Being from PA yourself I would imagine you come across people from Jersey from time to time. It's a competitve environment and the people are tough.
If you consider the whole picture, Giuseppe Limongi cutting his teeth building frames for Anquetil (interesting dude) in Paris, moving to Jersey with a suitcase full of brazing rod and technical drawings and working to build a race team and brand in NJ..Pardon me but It's easy to sit back at this point and pass judgement today but that was a pretty tough gig in 1972.
You don't have to look far beyond Coppi, Anquetile, Bobet brands to see that the folks building some of those bikes had no interest in anything but delivering at a certain price yet they bore the name of cycling champions.
Paris sport engaged in the same activities that other brands did but because they were local we have a more intimate perspective. They also built some awesome frames and were a powerful racing force in the east. I am sure Greg Lemond and Pedro Delgado rode PS frames at some point from what I have learned.
The PS frame in my shop has many examples of innovative and time consuming attention to details. It is also very light and has the feel of quality material. I know they insisted on special brazing alloys and made their own tooling and they raced to win. I think if you talked that smack to Fraysse personally, he would throw sand in your eyes and knock your ass out.
I can also tell you that tube frame stickers are usually sold as "part numbers" (there are exceptions) and that 531 is a formula for a steel alloy and nothing else. 531 could be cast into the shape of a sewer pipe and is available in dozens of shapes and configurations from carefully butted deliciacies to seam welded Raleigh head tubes. Any volume builder will get rolls or piles of 531 stickers. You have to put them on straight, you know?
I am glad you shared your information and I hope you enjoyed mine.
As they say, if you like it, it's good.