Originally Posted by
Digital_Cowboy
So because a motorist acted in an a presumably illegal and definitely unsafe manner you’re willing to blame where and how she was riding. Wouldn’t it be better to blame the driver for engaging in such a dangerous manner when THEY clearly didn’t have a clear line of sight? My take on this case is that had the motorist in question been more patient and had waited for a safe spot to pass then they never would have hit the woman in question.
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As you’ve been told sadly, the bicycle specific infrastructure that you enjoy would not work in the USA. Because:
a) The American motorist will not sit well with having any of their “road” given up/infringed upon.
a. They want to be able to go fast without having to worry about accommodating slower moving traffic.
b. They view the road as being their and only their domain.
b) The American motorist want to give up “any” of their roads to anyone else.
IF VC is so “wrong” then how do you explain why so many people here in the states practicing it safely? How do you explain all of those who practice it reporting that when they ride VC vs. FRAP that they get more not less respect on the road?
There is an intersection on my normal route that if I go through it one way I get what is known as a “dead read” because it gives priority the avenue that crosses the street. Whereas if I go through the intersection on the avenue I can catch the light green, about half the time I have to deal with some semi-heavy traffic. So far everyone that I’ve had coming up behind me when I’ve signaled that I am preparing to move to the left has been met with cooperation, i.e. the motorists will slow down and give me time and space to move into the left hand turn lane.
Thus, I would say proving that riding VC style does in fact work.
As for the killed cyclist, I only place a very small part of the responsibility on herself, as we have pretty universal FRAP here. The overwhelming responibility is, of course, with the driver. But that's not the issue, really. What this - and the other example of the blind curve - tells us is, that IF you ride VC in such a place (and now mr. Forester tells me that it isn't VC, though several people here told me it is, and the only right thing to do), you put your fate in the hands of drivers to a completely unnecessary extent.
And that brings us to your reasons for feeling that VC "works". I'm sure it does. Most of the time. After all, most drivers are reasonable people who will, albeit grudgingly, cooperate with and accept cyclists regardless of their riding style. But don't forget, just as History is written by the "winners", so will reports on the success of VC be told by those who survive it (and that is the vast majority). However, with VC incorporating riding like in the examples I've given here and elsewhere, one is allowed to be rather skeptical of claims as to its being THE safe manner of riding. In the "tour de **** you" thread, it's quite effectively described how it's based on presumptions about traffic which are not realist but utopian. Mr. Forester has a very inflexible and immature way of understanding traffic (and apparently language, too), which doesn't in my eyes inspire confidence.
The reasons you give for Dutch style infrastructure not working in the USA are not really that, but reasons why it will be difficult to implement. But that's no different in principle, but only in degree, from the situation in most of the world, including Denmark and exluding probably only Holland. You should see the comments to Danish websites discussing the exlusion of cars from more streets, or lowered speed limits etc. The same bloodthirstyness, car centricity and vengefulness that you get in English speaking countries.