Pudget - I don't think the lightest steels are lighter than most 3/2.5 butted ti frames, but am not certain. I know they're close, but I think most ti frames do still have a very slight weight edge - at least after the steel is painted. I really like my ti bikes - but how much is the material and how much is the builder? I like the material properties very much - you don't stress about chips and patina with ti. De Rosa and Tom Kellogg are pretty good designers, so it's not surprising that I'd like their ti bikes.