So basically a new roadie will notice little to no difference in Ultegra vs 105? If that's the case, then I can see why the frame and wheels would be the biggest difference. I can afford the carbon frame...heck I could afford the Forza Elite if I wanted to, but I don't want to spend more than $1000-1500 on my first road bike, because I don't know what things over the long haul will be the most important to me. If carbon is the way to go over aluminum, and that youtube video I posted earlier is really just B.S., maybe the Forza Race is the best option. It gets really confusing when you have two groups (carbon vs aluminum) telling you two different things.