Originally Posted by
canam73
I don't believe that my posts have you totally lost.
You obviously post way more than I see, but when I do come across your commentary in my opinion you often do sound condescending and vague. Typically you come in to discussions stating that whatever came before is questionable with out ever saying what. Then you move on to your opinions that will hint at things but again, you never quite finish you points or stand behind anything. It seems to imply that these issues are far to complicated for this bike forum. To me you come off sounding like the dude in the battle of wits part of the Princess Bride.
You want me to challenge you directly? Ok, let's look at what we were already talking about here, the current fad of 23mm rims. This is at least the third thread in which you posted in vaguely critical manner of them. In your post (#17) you take use a lot of words to say that 1 aero data can me manipulated, 2 tire/rim width differences might be a placebo and 3 the nominal width of a rim isn't the only factor that determines it's relative stiffness.
Ok, so let's hear it.
1 (actually, skip this one. I don't care.)
2 For everyday aluminum road clincher trainers I like the grip and comfort I get running 23mm tires on 23mm rims at about 10psi less than I get away with on 19mm rims. Is that a placebo?
3 Tell us about some rims. What's good and what's bad. Compare the A23 to the Aerohead or the XR279 to the 270. Tell us what we might or might not notice. There aren't that many out there that are commonly available. I don't wouldn't expect you to comments on all of them, but you relate your experiences and thoughts on the more popular ones.
In past threads I have seen you imply that existing road bikes weren't designed for 23mm rims without giving any specific reason. For all anyone would know you might think they are the cause of asploding carbon. And now it turns out your smoking gun is that when using certain pad/caliper/rim combinations it might be necessary to shave the pads down some when they are new?
Wow. That is really a non-issue. You can just as easily blame the caliper or pad. Why wouldn't you just say that in the first place instead of sounding like you know some deep dark industry secret? I honestly thought you would have something more than that to say about it.
Want a second example?
Prior to this the last thing I remember seeing from you was when you jumped in to a thread to say something along the lines of '32 hole hubs are useless for a wheelbuilder (like yourself)'. And then went on to point out 2-3 reasons why you would use them and owned up to having built something like 100 of them in the past year. And yeah, doing some probably bad math on what you profit per wheelset I can see that is with out a doubt a fraction of your output if you are making a living at this. But it's still a hundred effing wheels built on hubs you started out saying were 'useless' to you.
I believe in that thread you also used the term "over spoked" as if it was something to be feared. For an actual professional racer, maybe. For anyone else, no. I guess a wheelbuilder could fear it as it might allow the customer's wheels to last longer.
You say you don't know what I'm implying? I don't think you are dumb, so I don't believe you. I think you purposefully hold back. I often do the same with my customers. The more they think they couldn't do what I do for them the better it is for me, even though most of them wouldn't anyway.
So why do I call you out? Because for the most part this is a consumer and enthusiasts forum. Posts from you and Dbop and Boyd certainly enrich this forum and can provide perspective that the most of us can not. But in my opinion many of your posts are insincere in their intent to be informative. And when I see that if I have a spare minute or two I'm going to say to what I think.
I see what you're saying but I think you may be drawing conclusions that aren't really there.
I do upon occasion hold back. It is not for some sort of reason to keep my perspective customers in the dark. Quite the contrary. This is a really messed up industry. The OEMs and suppliers troll these forums. In the last couple of months I have had to fight with (ok you hate when I hold back so I will say it) SRAM. They are a local Chicago company.
I know a lot of people from there in various positions simply because they are very involved in the local scene. I sponsor some local teams. I offer deals to teams I sponsor. Like most regular consumers they shop these prices around. "Can you give me a better deal than Rob"? Well SrAM has a very strict MAP policy. Someone talked to a local shop. They called SRAM. sRaM called around to try and find where I was geting product. Then they tried to anonymously shop me, and attempted to put me on a permanent "do not sell" list. All because someone tried to shop for a lower price. As a result I have stopped selling almost all SRAM to everyone. Not worth the risk.
A23's from Velocity. They read that thread. It made the discussions I was having with them a bit more difficult on both sides.
Frames that wide rims don't fit in? How about Giant TcR frames that I have sponsorship deals worked out with.
I get the impression that you think this is some little secret place for cycling enthusiasts to exchange free and open information and for the most part it is, but when you have some know.edge and are in the industry and you see people jumping on a bandwagon that might have a bent axle so to speak you feel like jumping in and helping out. You can't always say, "hey that company x axle is bent" when you're sitting there wearing a company x hat. The implication should be enough to make consumers think twice or maybe just take a step back and decide for themselves.
On 23 mm rims - examples? Ok
Right now I guess I don't give a **** about who I piss off.
A23's are very shallow and are the flimsiest of all of the 23mm rims that I build with
HED C2 are very nice. Much stiffer, higher quality with a welded seam and shot peened surface but they deal only through QBP and the prices are horribly high for what they are and they are now painting their decal on to the rim - upset at builders like me who like to put our own decals on.
The Pacenti SL23 is an amazing rim. I am building with it more now than any other rim. Period. It is made by Sun which is the same company who makes Stan's NoTubes. The quality of the weld is very high, the alloys are strong.
Kinlin Xc279 -great rim but heavy. I used this rim on all of the Vanderkitten wheels. Mainly because this is available in a 20h. The HEd wouldn't work for me because I couldn't brand it and its not available in a 20h only 24,28,32. Even the Pacenti is only available in 24.28,32. No 20 option.
As for Overspoking. I like how you assume it's some sort of derogatory thing. Methinks the lady doth protest too much. Overspoking is a concept. Meaning I can build a stiff rim for a 190# rider in a 24/28. But if I want a more compliant ride without losing system stiffness or durability I can "overspoke" a flimsy rim. Or move them to say an A23 with a 28/32 setup. The same concept as what we used to do back in the 80's with flimsy box section rims. It isn't that we couldn't figure out how to drill less holes in the rim it's that you have to overspoke a soft rim.
32 hole. Customers have read a lot of forum posts....they don't want to buy 32h hubs. That combined with the fact that most rims are much stiffer than they used to be makes the 32 hole option a MUCH less frequently used alternative. Making a 32h drilled hub kind of like a hub with a tiny to non-existent market. Shimano is the biggest example of this. Customers commonly ask for a light wheelset with cup and cone bearings that they have read about on forums. Like a Shimano Ultegra. Then you reply back with a quote for a 32h wheelset and they are shocked. "The forums said I could run a 24/28". "You can but the Shimano Ultegra hub is only offered in 32 and 36". "Oh...then I don't want that." Making it a hub that isn't very useful to most wheel builders in today's market.
I'm and extremely helpful, down to earth guy. I have built a long and lasting reputation out here for being helpful. If you haven't seen it that way, feel that I am condescending, or vague and un helpful then you simply have an incorrect impression. I can only assume (yes assume) that it might be because you have seen me post stuff and not put in specifics and then gotten pissed interpreting that as me acting as if intelligent inquisitive individuals such as yourself aren't somehow "worthy" of knowing the specifics. It's simply because its a bad move to directly out companies I have to maintain working relationships with. If you ever want to know specifics then just ask. Or send a pm.
Better yet give me a call