Originally Posted by
jjvw
The part that you are missing and dismissing is that we humans have memories. We often associate memories with physical things like tools, toys, food, places, even other people. Your paragraphs upon paragraphs of "not getting it" and mocking those who do is quite insulting. Hence the accusation of self righteousness. I continue to stand by the claim. However, I may be misinterpreting your massive overuse of emoticons. The internet is funny that way. Not everyone uses their tools properly.
I do need to clarify that I agree with your position that objects are objects, but only on a cold intellectual level.
Clearly its a fool's errand with you, but I will share an example of why I might have an attachment to a physical object or certain materials that transcends its actual usefulness.
About 10 years ago during college, I found an old well used Stanley combination square that belonged to my dad sometime in the late-70's/early-80's. Since then I have used this square on a near weekly basis. Occasionally I have entertained the idea of springing for a more precise Starrett or other wildly expensive model. I never do it, largely because I like the idea of using the same tool my dad used to measure, create, repair, learn & teach with. For the last decade, I have measured, created, repaired, learned & taught with the very same tool. The torch has been passed. I could do the same with any other combo square, but this square carries a meaningful history with it. A history that points to a person via a tangible object. While one thing means more than the other, I care about both. You understand that, don't you?
If not, then I am left feeling like your assertions of reserving your emotional attachments for friends and family as sounding trite and disingenuous.
Ok, Because you addressed me personally I'll answer the one last post. Your emotional attachment to your dad's square is totally irrelevant to any debate a new person would find as value in choosing a new square if they were just getting into drafting. Because you couldn't recommend your dad's square to them and expect them to have the same attachment. (or I hope in good conscience feel the need to) This thread has reached the same point many, many threads reach in three pages as so many before it have taken 15 pages to reach. The loss of objectiveness to debate the quality of a tool, the bicycle, to one person verses another. It doesn't take long to realize that people buy what they want based on any number of reasons. But none of the reasons will make a Steel, Aluminum. Ti, Scandium, or Carbon Fiber bike better or worse to another person. Once we reach that state we understand that steel is nothing more than a personal choice made by each individual or that is has qualities some do not admire and the same is true of the other materials the debate should settle down and at most take two pages.
The reason it goes on longer is it leaves the realm of holding up the two to four objects to a disinterested third party and listing quality A through Z and seeing which has the most checkmarks next to it and gets into the emotional attachment stage. That is only one short leap from leaving the debate on the tool, object or bicycle to an attack on the individual for their reasons. My post taking responsibility for stirring the pot with the smile was for those of us that have walked this road many times. It goes no where, never has never will. The only opinion that counts on what bike someone gets is the one cast by the person's "wallet." Everything said up to the point someone buys a bike is salesmanship. For every person that finds CF too stiff and loves the flexibility of steel there is a person that hates flex at the bottom bracket finds it a pain. Still not going to change and never will.
So yes I jumped into the debate and may have moved it to the stage of person against person ten pages early but it would go there anyway and at least I admitted it. Just look to threads on Brooks saddles. well any thread on saddles turns into a debate on Brooks saddles so why bother?
You just moved to the personal early. I don't know you and you have never met me so I will not judge you as being a slave to sentiment as you might my being trite. Some recognize Hyperbole and some do not and some see such debates as nothing more than words and some take them to heart and personal. You not I have to decide where you are in these debates. But I am not ready to dismiss anyone's choice on bike frame material even if it differs from mine because I do see them as tools and may the best tool for the job always be the one people find value in. Not because my Dad used that tool and not because I use that tool and not because the pros use that tool but because the individual wants that tool, whatever it is made of. And that is where these threads end after all is said and done.