Hmm, I'm having deja vu, I feel like these same points and arguments come up every time someone starts a kickstand thread.

Maybe we should discuss something a little less controversial, like helmet use?

I would love to see more nice bike frames being built with kickstand plates. Anybody have a list of nicer frames that have kickstand plates? I don't think any C&V frames came with them other than low-end Huffys etc, but there are some modern builders that are supporting the kickstand cult:

- Rivendell (Atlantis)
- Velo Orange (Polyvalent)
- Soma (Saga)