French rider and coach Cyrille Guimard fit himself and his riders considerably behind KOPS. He said this put the hamstrings in position to apply more power. Of his most successful riders, Hinault, LeMond, and Fignon, only Fignon never had knee problems.

Australian fitter Steve Hogg says don't worry about the knee's relation to the pedal spindle because it's all about balance. That is, after setting the saddle height, the hips should be no farther forward than what's comfortable for the back muscles to support the torso without the help of the arms, and then readjust the saddle height. Once the torso is comfortably balanced and not causing excessive energy expenditure, the legs will adapt to the position and use that saved energy to turn the cranks more effectively. This philosophy has been working for me since the late 1970s. Because I still have a swimmer's torso, this puts me a little behind KOPS. And I don't have knee problems.

The thing about pedaling a bicycle is that it's a dynamic activity, the body adapts, and getting too precise about static hip angles and knee positions can be a dead end.