Thread: Geometry?
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Old 12-09-13 | 09:58 AM
  #51  
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rpenmanparker
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From: Houston, TX

Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build

Originally Posted by carpediemracing
Heh. Thanks on the clips bit. I initially started them for the Missus, who hadn't been involved in any sprints etc (most women haven't, even those that race often, and she's only done one race). It became a learning tool. Since 2010 it's also become a safety thing - in 2009 someone intentionally crashed those around him, including me, and I broke my first bone in my life (in 27 seasons of racing). He escaped serious sanctions only because two of his teammates lied under oath (2 teammates and him said he braked to avoid someone; one of those teammates had been dropped and couldn't have seen the front of the field, and the reality was that he tried to push the guy next to him out of the way and then suddenly swerved across the road while we were going almost 30 mph). Anyway… I was told that if I had video or photographic evidence that it would have sealed the (USA Cycling) hearing. I went and bought the Contour helmet cam after that, have two more (spares mainly), and record every race and every training ride I can. The training ride recordings are for the same reason but more morbid - if a car kills me hopefully there'll be a record of it. Anyway... I try to make the clips entertaining (for me - it's all music by my two brothers and bands they've been in) as well as educational (for others watching). What's interesting is that I've pointed out a couple pinch points on courses and I found that over a year or two racers approach those pinch points with a bit more caution/respect than before (New Britain / Nutmeg, Tuesday Nights, Bethel). I'd like to think they watched my clips but it may just be coincidence. Heh.

I have some thoughts here on my bar placement.

My bars, with a 15 cm drop, are not quite below the tire:


With the compact bars (12 cm drop), they're above. My back hurt with these bars but I really like the drops shape so I'm getting a stem that will let me use these bars:


Side view of my position using the regular bars with 12 cm stem, so old style bars. The bar has 15 cm drop. It's 4 to go and I'm just started to get dropped (M35+, 2011, Red Trolley Crit in San Diego) and so I'm forward, digging deep, hoping the group eases and I can close a 40 or 50 meter gap. Never happened, I stopped the next lap to watch the finish. You can see that it's not an extreme position. I don't have a flexible back - I'm hard pressed to touch my toes and I even have a hard time putting jeans on - but this position works for me. I'm comfortable for however long I can ride - the day after the race I did 6.5 hours on the bike, going up Palomar from my SoCal "home base". On long rides like those I spend most of the last couple hours in the drops - it's the most comfortable position for me once I'm fatigued.


So that's the drop bit.

As far as front end weight, you need weight on the front end. Generally speaking if you lose the front end you're hitting the deck. Therefore weight the front end. If the rear slides, no biggie. It may worry someone that doesn't know (like a non-racer on a group ride) but in a race virtually no one blinks in a Cat 3 field if someone does something like plant a pedal and skip their rear wheel to the side a foot. Not a biggie because nothing happens. Front wheel goes… biggie. It's possible to recover from a front wheel slide but it's very hard and relies on instinctive reactions, not thinking and such.

I put as much weight on the front as possible. I slide forward on the saddle. I'm on the drops. I sometimes find myself pressing down on the bars even though that does nothing to actually change the load on the front tire. Get the front wheel through the turn okay and everything will follow.

I've had some pretty close calls in corners where I've maintained control, not because I'm a great bike handler but because my weight distribution allowed me to do whatever I instinctively tried to do. In one race, on the last corner (acute angle, downhill leading into an uphill, off camber exit line, had been wet earlier) the guy in front of me, on the hoods (a huge no-no - too much weight up high, much less brake control, easy to lose grip), laid his bike down hard. We were going maybe 30 mph? and he was maybe 4th or so in line. I braked, went around him, and sprinted to the line, and although I was keyed up because it was the last lap, his fall didn't faze me. No adrenaline rush, no panic, just "go left, don't hit curb, shift down, go, shift up…"

What I find is that if I get scared going into a turn I push back on the saddle. This makes the front end light, makes the bike harder to steer, gives less traction, it's bad all around. When I don't give in and stay forward, weight the front, I can carve arcs well. I learned this when I did a 35 minute descent that I'd only ridden up just before (Palomar Mountain, SoCal). I only see the road once or twice a year and I can't remember all the corners, yet by the third or fourth time I did the road I was blasting down it fast enough that in a mile I dropped my SoCal host so hard that it took him a minute to catch up (I stopped, worried he flatted or something). There are a bunch of switchbacks and curves, some high speed, and massive drop offs if you go over some of the guard rails. I could corner really aggressively once I kept myself from moving back on the saddle. I had to take confidence in my ability to corner, force myself to take late apex lines to give me the most leeway in the second non-visible part of the turns, and things worked out fine. When I backed up on my bike, unweighting the front end, it lost responsiveness and didn't corner well.
I have no personal reason to dispute your approach, no experience at all that I can bring to the discussion. But isn't it true that the traditional fit guys like Lemond liked to relax the seat tube and push the saddle way back? Am I remembering that correctly? How does that correlate to your approach? Different type of riding?
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