Originally Posted by
MassiveD
How about solution looking for a problem.
They aren't a solution looking for a problem in my experience. They are a solution
to the problem of constantly breaking spokes. The manner in which I build wheels hasn't changed much in the 25+ years of wheel building. Changing to DT Alpines cured all manner of spoke problems I had in the first 10 years of wheel building. That's not just touring wheels but hard ridden mountain bike wheels as well. The longest lived wheel I ever had was a mountain bike wheel with Alpines that I built when the spoke was first introduced.
Originally Posted by
MassiveD
If that were true straight spokes would be stronger, which in some regards they are.
You are missing the point of a butted spoke. You need more strength at the bend because there's where any wear is going to happen. If a spoke breaks, it's going to break at the head. Thread breaks can happen but they are rare. Breaks along the straight sections of the spoke are almost nonexistant.
Originally Posted by
MassiveD
The question is where to put one's money, faith... I prefer larger spoke counts, though I haven't broken low spoke counts. One could call that a gimmick. Some people want really fat or deep rims. Triple butted is an option, but it's a real outlier. The spokes are breaking because build quality was down; or components were poor quality, undersized, or didn't play well together. The lack of magic beans is not a part of it.
You say it's an outlier. I don't agree. It's as much a viable option as higher spoke counts, shorter spokes or washers.
Originally Posted by
MassiveD
Well obviously, and my early inclination when the OP asked his question was to send him over to Peter's site. He has different cost options, any of which is going to be just fine, as far as formulas are concerned. I have formulas from a few other places also. And you have a formula that uses IIIs. Nothing wrong with that, but the specifics can vary. A proven formula is a proven formula, there isn't just one.
I think you are missing what seely's question was and who seely is. He's apparently an employee of Velocity and asking what tourists would want in wheels offered by Velocity. He's not a "regular" cyclist asking questions about the "best" touring wheel. If you want to build wheels for touring and you want to offer something that puts you above the other offerings out there, offer and market the wheel as being stronger than other offerings. They might be stronger than what most people need but they'll also be strong enough for the people who really need strength.
Originally Posted by
MassiveD
Yeah, but normally only for the reasons listed above, or because of a bum spokes from otherwise reliable sets. Jobst says that most people assume a broken spoke is an indication they should replace everything, or try something completely different, as you may have originally introduced yourself to triples. But he says in fact when a given spoke breaks, you have a chance to winnow out the bad actors, you should stick with the spoke set, and eventually they will be pretty much eternal. The bad news is most builders will only rebuild with new spokes, so every rotation one starts all over again. One reason to do one's own builds.
Brandt has also said that spokes fail due to fatigue. I haven't read everything that Brandt has ever published but I suspect that he, as an engineer, would endorse stronger heads for improved strength. Engineers like to over-engineer things.
Originally Posted by
MassiveD
Though he mentioned they changed their dimensions. There was a change that took place and led to a lot of bad wheels going out. Changing heads to be more usable with lacing machines was one explanation. So he had a solid reason, but the take away is that you can lace good wheels with either, and Wheelsmith doesn't have triples that I am aware of. A triple is just a spoke with different diamaters in the three sections. It comes with a good chance it won't actually fit your non-DT hubs so what is the point. Fit is what matters. DT sells the little washers because they make heads that fit badly, ticked a lot of builders off, and they moved to other spokes.
Wheelsmith doesn't have a triple but they do have a spoke with a heavier head...the DH13. It's the same thicker, stronger head idea as the DT Alpines.
As for the fit of the 2.3mm head of Alpines, I've never had a problem with the head not fitting a hub. I've built wheels with Shimano Deore, XT, XTR, White Industries, Phil Wood, and Formula hubs. The hub has to have a drilling of 2.3mm for the threads to pass through so having a head that is the same size as the threads isn't a problem. I've never used a washer either.
Originally Posted by
MassiveD
This would all be more convincing if DT wasn't the company that had the head popping spokes, and the washers, and the fancy tricks to get their heads to fit (see the book). Meanwhile, the other spokes are running just fine.
You are the first person that I've heard complain about DT's being particularly prone to breakage. Peter White doesn't say that they are prone to breakage. His complaint is with design and ease of build.
Originally Posted by
MassiveD
Who said "just strong enough". Strong enough may mean a 6 times strength factor, but when you are there, you are there. There is always some guy who wants to add even more. As Henry Fonda said to "Wobbles" in How the West Was Won, just before he shot him: "Wobbles. How can you trust a man who wears both a belt and suspenders? The man can't even trust his own pants".
You said exactly "just" strong enough. That's what saying you "don't need to build stronger than strong enough" means to me. "Strong enough" has no numbers with it. "Strong enough" is different for a fast race bike carrying a 140 lb rider than for a 200 lb rider with a 40 lb touring load.
I've had long experience with engineers and
every single one of them wouldn't trust their own pants. If 1/4" of steel is going to hold the pressure they need to hold, they'll use 1/2". I've designed pressure reactors myself. If I want to run a reaction at 1500 psi, I can use a vessel with 0.025" of stainless steel. The burst pressure on the vessel is around 9000 psi. Just to make sure that I had the margin of safety I want, I use a vessel with 0.069" of steel.
I do the same with the wheels I build. I may not
need a head diameter of 2.3mm. I could build with a 1.8mm spoke but the weight savings isn't worth the loss of strength. A 2.3mm head just makes the wheel something that I don't have to think about.