Originally Posted by
chaadster
I can't follow what you're saying here, but it sounds like you agree that saddle setback is not the same as seat tube angle, and that you agree that a relaxed fit is not the same as relaxed geometry. I don't think it serves anything to go beyond that at this point.
No, I'm saying being able to have a relaxed fit without resorting to extreme seatposts and stems is part of a relaxed frame geometry. You can't just declare a frame relaxed because it has a slack front end.