Originally Posted by
grolby
Okay, first of all, if "don't be obtuse" is so insulting that you need to break out that amateur psychoanalysis about my putative motives, I suggest you step back from the keyboard and take a deep breath. You came out with a complaint that Cat 5 racers are being told not to race for the win, in fact that they are being told not to even have fun. It's a complaint so absurd that "don't be obtuse" didn't seem all that strong to me. But hey, I'm not here to hurt your feelings, okay? I'm sorry.
My feelings aren't hurt but thanks for the apology. Like I've posted before, this is the third time you've tossed out some minor insult. Maybe your motives are to add to the argument, but it comes off in a way that you're trying to impress certain people on this forum.
Originally Posted by
grolby
Second, I don't think we largely agree, but it's hard to say because the points you're trying to make are unclear to me. Do you think Cat 5 needs more support and more instruction, or not? Because demanding that alterations (which aren't really in the cards at USAC anyway) not interrupt the "actual race" sounds like you think more structured clinics and the like are just no fun because it's not really racing somehow. Complaining about lack of attention is, well, not exactly the opposite side, but more structure would require more attention from officials.
I think there needs to be more support and clinics, and there are many ways it can be done without interrupting the race. Forcing them to read one of CDR's bike handling posts would be 10x more effective than what is done now. If its done in a manner where the race is secondary, it becomes a barrier to entry in addition to the many other barriers. Ten races for someone living out in rural areas can take them years.
Originally Posted by
grolby
There is a diversity of opinions on whether you should do 10 and get out right away or stay in Cat 5 until you feel comfortable, or if there should be some kind of individual discretion involved by upgrade officials. But ain't nobody saying you shouldn't try to win if you want, only that it isn't the objective of racing in the category.
It sounded a heck of a lot more to me that your point was that everyone is telling the Cat 5 racers not to try to win their races. Which they aren't. Then there was your justifying point about how no one pays any attention to the 5s, which I get, but which seems kind of orthogonal to the question of whether you should be wanting to win or not. All I can tell you is that no is ever going to give a crap about the result of the Cat 5 race except the people in it. But you know, so what, because that's also true of the result of the Cat 4 race, the Cat 3 race, most of the time the Cat 2 and Cat 1 races as well. If the Cat 5 racers are being treated more poorly as customers (lack of medical support, no course set up, whatever) than the rest, that's a problem with the promoter, sure. No argument there. It also has not been the standard practice to treat Cat 5s that poorly in the places I've raced. But I've raced primarily in two regions, the Southeast and the Northeast, so my base of experience is totally insufficient to say what the level of support given Cat 5 races is across the country. What about you?
I'm not sure what the objective of the 5 Category is, because while a few get it right with great support most just treat it like a race. I can chop people for 10 races an go on to the 4's. I can go ten races without even knowing the concepts of protecting the front wheel. Like someone told me before, a Cat 5 race is the equivalent of teaching children firearm safety by locking them in a room with a loaded firearm. The only thing the category is doing is parsing out the newbies; which doesn't make them better racers after 10 races.
Originally Posted by
grolby
I guess what I want to know is, what exactly ARE you trying to say? Okay, you think Cat 5 is marginalized. What do you think needs to change? You seem to be saying that insisting that Cat 5 should have a greater focus on learning would be further marginalizing it - is that accurate? If not, I'm really not seeing what you are unhappy about in this discussion.
First off, I do think instruction is needed, but the problem is you'll have a difference in philosophies. The clinic I attended in January went more over how to win a race than bike handling. I don't even recall them mentioning to protect the front wheel. If USAC had a better mandated instructional program you could Cat people up sooner and they would be better bike handlers. As far as race support goes, the 5's races I've done have always been the first to go. One of last crits we had 2 guys lying on deck in pain the whole race, no one even stopped to check on them. Being new to the sport, maybe that's how it is in all races. Largely things aren't set up, support in at minimal staff and its early the race is more of a test run than anything else. I suppose someone has to be the first, and its typically Cat 5, Juniors...
Around here, racing seems to be on decline. One of the big issues seems to be that a lot of cyclists just don't want to bother with doing 10 Cat 5 races. Why race when you can do the Saturday, Tuesday, or Thursday rides and brag that you raced a bunch of higher Category racers and a handful of pros. The payback for racing in a Cat 5 race is minimal since people tend to downplay that category. I'm fine with a bunch of Cat 2 and 3's saying '
but that's just a Cat 5 race' but now you hear it from guys that have never raced. This is more a local frustration than a forum one, although many seem to hold that view as well.
So I guess what I mean by the Category being marginalized is by making it a quasi beginners group with no real directive it doesn't achieve a clear goal outside of singling out racers as beginners. For the most part, Category 5 has great bike handlers save 2 or 3 guys.
Out here the real instruction is done by the club rides but not everyone in the US has access to those.