Originally Posted by
I-Like-To-Bike
I am still waiting for you and pals to make a case for your trite platitudes, other than moral indignation and you don't want "sprawl" in your backyard or anyone else's even if there is an apparent large demand for such development from the public and businesses for what already exists and more.
I have made this case and you ignore it. It boils down to people having the choice to try out and use different forms of transportation without moving to another area. It has to do with children growing up with the ability to get around by bike or bus instead of having to rely on drivers giving them rides until they're old enough to drive themselves.
Zoning laws are meant for controlling the types of development of specific areas, not as a device for creating roadblocks for any and all development disliked by pious moralists who want to go back to nature in somebody else's backyard.
Bad business is outlawed. Why should sprawl-development be exempt from the morality that prohibits other (morally) bad businesses such as organized theft? Just because no single developers creates sprawl single-handedly doesn't mean they don't effectively collude to do so in their aggregate market behavior.
Originally Posted by
phoebeisis
no way are "25%" of any facilities going to be dedicated to bike riders-which at best account for a minuscule percentage of transportation miles
It's not about the percentage of facilities. It is about the proportions of cycling, transit, and driving. If driving isn't less than 50% in a given area, sprawl is going to continue to grow and reduce the viability of cycling and transit in those areas.
bus cost-your guess $100,000 **********? Yikes- a dinky mass produced car is $25,000 now
BELOW is a cut from somewhere or other-it is dead on- what buses actual cost
Good point. I was thinking of an add I saw for a used bus. These can sell for well below $100,000. I chose that amount as what I thought would be an average for all multi-passenger vehicles, new and used, including shuttle vans, etc.
$12 for a bus driver?? Wow you certainly are a free market proponent-Sure you can get a driver for $12(which with minimal benefits is $15)
Remember that poor Co-pilot who crashed the commuter plane -NE- maybe near buffalo?-she made just $20,000/yr works about about your $12
But a $12/hr driver-will be a $12/hr driver-he/she won't show up on time-will call in-turnover will be significant-and they will regularly crash the bus into cars etc-with all the "injured riders" grabbing their necks and insisting on being transported to the Hospital-and them heading to a TV chiseling lawyer
I'm familiar with the type of person you describe but I'm afraid to say that this wage level is only inadequate because people have automotive expenses and pay rent or a mortgage instead of buying/building a small cottage on an inexpensive parcel of land. Have you watched any of the youtube videos about people building 'tiny houses' and living rent-free and mortgage-free? Yes you'd probably need a mortgage for the $20,000 or so you need to get the land and build the house but you could also probably save up this amount of money in a few years if you cohabitate with someone else making $12/hour and living conservatively (i.e. cooking/eating at home for most meals, shopping at discount stores, etc.), riding a bike for transportation instead of paying insurance, car maintenance, fuel, etc.
Of course transit buses are huge and slow-usually passenger injuries are minimal to zero-but they can chew up cars-power poles etc
So $12- is out -better plan on more like $16+ another $8 in benefits-perhaps Cooker-seems to be an accountant?? consultant-could chime in on actual costs of various employees
I just point out that the cost of living in a particular area is a function of how many people drive. If everyone drives, the per capita cost of living is higher than if some people drive and others don't. For me without a car, $12/hour goes a lot further than $16/hour does for someone who drives. If many businesses that pay $16/hour would pay $12 to employees who cycle, they could pass the savings along to their customers and thus reduce the price of their products. A lower cost of living translates into more affordability IF the cost savings of low-wages aren't siphoned off into manager salaries, stock dividends, etc.
6 mpg-not a terrible guess- some San Fran. "golden gate transit whatever" indicated they got 4mpg-which actually seems "too good"
In the S and SW it might take at least another 1 gallon per hour for the AC-perhaps 2 gph(at idle my ancient suburban gets .6gph idle .7gph ac on)
Miles-per-passenger-gallon is what you need to compare to personal vehicles. Ten passengers at 6mpg = 60mpg per passenger, 120passengermpg if there are 20 passengers, etc. For simplicity, just think of a shuttle van that might get 15mpg but carries 5-10 people. A 40mpg vehicle with 4 people in it might get 160passenger mpg so coordinating carpooling is also a good idea.
Anyway, while fuel economy saves costs, conserves energy, reduces CO2, etc. the real point is sprawl reduction to promote transportation choice. Even if electric cars would get 1000mpg, they would still clog up roads, drive sprawl-development, and people would have little choice but to drive because bus transit and cycling would take too long for most destinations.
In any case your costs would be at least 3X-meaning $3/ride
and my suspicion is 5x might be more like it(maintenance and repair costs can kill you- diesels get great mpg- but surprisingly "delicate/expensive" fuel systems) $5/ride
But it was back of envelope and a good faith effort-
I can't imagine that the cost of building and maintaining one bus is more than building and maintaining cars for all the passengers inside. Therefore there's something wrong with the idea that transit costs more than a personal automobile.
If anything, bus producers and marketers are milking the subsidies and public funds available for transit to make disproportionate revenues while car sales make their revenues by selling volume. This is another reason automotivism is poised against sprawl-reduction. If car markets shrink, that will mean higher car prices.
In any case the proselytizers need to "sell" bike riding as fun that makes you more attractive
Which has the distinct advantage of being TRUE
Selling it as MEDICINE for the WOES imposed on us by "EVIL CAR PEOPLE" **********
Duh-we-USA- ALL DRIVE-you are telling us we are BAD- really think you can sell that????
More people would invest in 'selling' bike riding as transportation if sprawl didn't discourage it. Sometimes you need to heal before you can have fun. You don't "sell" bone-setting as a way to make walking more attractive but people accept the need for this uncomfortable and time-consuming procedure to be able to have the freedom to use their leg later once it's healed.
Geez-you car free proselytizers- have never actually sold anything, right??
Like Machka said "FUN -BIKES ARE FUN"
Cars sell but road construction doesn't. Nevertheless, road construction is a prerequisite to driving. If you had to sell road-construction as being "fun," no one would ever be able to sell cars as "fun."
But this discussion-is fun-interesting-and Australia is endlessly fascinating to my generation(and to Germans too it seems)
and yes very interesting-and instructive on the WHY NO SPRAWL in Australia-
but the country/continent itself- is something
Discussing why Australia lacks sprawl is about as fun for people living in North American sprawl as it is for a fat person to look at why her high school friend never put on weight while she did.