View Single Post
Old 07-07-14 | 08:30 AM
  #576  
tandempower
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,319
Likes: 15
Originally Posted by phoebeisis
Tandempower-seem like a fair minded fellow-so I'm making an effort to not be a prick.
But you are selling Christian/jewish/Muslim ethics-fair enough(and the muslims-not so sure)
Jesus did it- but he was god and he offered heaven
The Commies-Marx etc-did the same thing-just rewarmed the teaching of their co-religionist -deleted god-but said "if you all do this, we will achieve heaven on earth"

The problem with selling "being good for goods sake-or for the sake of the future"
is humans aren't naturally "good"
Yeah I don't share your generous take on human nature.
You have to "give us" something .
Jesus sold "heaven when you die"-which in 30 AD in Roman Ruled Judea could be "pretty soon"
Commies sold "heaven on earth for future citizens" - USSR it didn't work
China ha,ha they are as bad as we are(maybe worse)so buyers remorse after MILLIONS killed-yeah no commies in china

Gotta give us something to be good.We won't do it for The Good of The Future- even if we believe you.
It sounds so funny when people talk about individuals like they are puppeteers with power beyond their direct sphere of influence. Not even Jesus controlled others beyond their free will to choose their own actions and thus effect the consequences of those actions. All any good leaders really do is try to make people see the consequences of actions, good and bad.

The only thing you 'give' people is the opportunity to make good choices and influence others to do so as well. If we fail, and enough people still make bad choices, the (bad) consequences will still affect us. If you give up and say it's futile to try because human nature is inherently flawed as well, the bad consequences will still affect us. If they don't affect us in our lifetime, they will affect future generations. Some people don't care what happens to people outside of their sphere of influence or who will live after they die. This is selfish.

Plenty of people give up and accept a life of indifference toward bad actions and their consequences. They accept their lot, take the good while it comes to them and usually blame others when their good luck runs out. If people choose indifference, what worse can you wish on them than to reap what they sow?

Originally Posted by Roody
If you think you will change the world by posting on an Internet forum, you are mistaken. Forums are for entertainment and information. Most of us post on threads like this because we enjoy the discussion and we learn a little from each other. We don't have delusions that we are changing the world.
Everything is constantly changing. Everything we do has consequences. That is how the future emerges from the present, just as the present emerged from the past in this way. All it really takes for present actions to change to create a better future is for people to realize 1) what the consequences of actions are 2) let go of all the futility ideologies that insulate them against the belief that they are just as much of the problem as anyone else. If they believe that there is collective inertia to human action that undermines the ability of individual determination to make any difference, they will fail to try and it is because they fail in this way individually that they fail collectively (or succeed, depending on whether you see the failure of the individual as the triumph of the collective or as a collective failure of failing individuals).

We also don't change the world by doing the right thing in our personal lives or setting a good example. As individuals, we're not a drop in the bucket. We're a water molecule in the ocean. As individuals we have no power whatsoever. I'm not saying it's a waste of time to do the right thing. I try to do the right thing myself and lead a "green life". But I don't delude myself and think I'm saving the world.
It doesn't matter how small any individual is relative to 'the world.' All that matters is the truth. If the truth can be established that sprawl is unsustainable, then people will either do something about it or fail to do anything and become supporters of degeneracy. Once people become supporters of degeneracy, they destroy each other out of hate and indifference. This is why so many people are smart enough to actively deny something like climate change theory; i.e. because they know that if it IS true, then they would be degenerate to do nothing about it.

Not everybody is going to enjoy discussions like the one we're having here in this thread. Some who don't enjoy it can just ignore or avoid the conversation by not opening the thread. Others prefer to disrupt the conversation or stop it from happening.
See above regarding resistance to colluding with degeneracy. Ignorance is bliss so some people do their darndest to remain ignorant and silence anyone who threatens to interfere with ignorance.

Originally Posted by Machka
I've travelled back and forth and up and down across the US, and i can tell you that there are a lot of places where no "sprawl" exists. But then, you haven't told us what your definition of sprawl is, so it is kind of hard to tell. So far we've determined that it is not small towns, the country, existing suburbs, or industrial areas ...….
This whole thread has defined sprawl. It has to do with high-traffic across long distances that increase disparity between transit/cycling and driving. It does not have to do with sparsely populated rural areas or suburbs that are self-contained enough that residents of those areas have the option of conveniently living car free if that is what they choose. It has to do with car-free living being a choice on par with automotive living, even if automotive living is not prohibited in the area.

And how do you know that people don't like driving in ... whatever it is that you call sprawl?
Most people accept it as a given. Most people are able to find happiness in the things they don't have control over. They may not be immediately aware that the mundane suffering that comes with driving-dependency in a sprawling area are avoidable. For them to know that, they would have to live car-free for some time, long enough to get used to it as an inevitability. E.g. if an average person had no choice but to live in some Dutch city, car-free, for the rest of their lives, they would ultimately live a happier, healthier, life but there would be nothing preventing their mind from continuing to believe that they preferred the convenience of driving simply because the mind is lazy and ignores the consequences of unhealthy choices until they manifest as health problems, which are then perceived in isolation from the patient's broader lifestyle.

People have the ability and freedom to choose where they want to live and where they want to go. People can have a discussion with their families (or themselves) about the pros and cons of living in various places, and can make a decision that is best for them. If someone has purchased a house in a suburb that is some distance from the centre of the city, they have very likely done so because they like that suburb. People don't tend to part willingly with large sums of money for something they don't like.
People feel good about making sacrifices to do what they believe is the best thing for themselves and their families. They choose a certain suburb because they believe their property will hold its value and/or appreciate. They do it because they believe they are safely isolated from crime and pollution of other areas. If all these things are only possible in their minds by driving long distances between the suburb and other areas, they will make the sacrifice and be happy about it. The sad part is that it is not a necessary sacrifice.

You can't assume that because you don't like "driving in these areas, let alone walking, biking, or taking a bus" that everyone feels the same way.
It doesn't matter how people feel. They all have the right to live in areas where the choice/freedom to switch transportation modes is available to them. If we were talking about the right to travel by helicopter and private plane everywhere, I would say it might not be feasible for everyone to have these choices available to them, but cycling and transit are within reach for everyone.

More importantly, if areas continue to grow beyond driving/transit/cycling parity, the choice continues to erode and the consequence is that sprawl brings motor-traffic to the point of untenability. That's unsustainable. Sprawl can't keep overflowing from one area to the next without moving toward some type of dead-end. It is not good when population growth progresses toward a dead-end. Who would disagree with that?
tandempower is offline  
Reply