Let me attempt to restate since I don't sem to have made myself clear: you can't determine trail and rake from teh frame's geometry. They relate to the fork. Of course rake and trail impact handling, but where did I say they didn't. BUt they are changeable, not frame geometry. Our friend here semed to think that they were all one: he lumped head angle, rake and trail into one grouping and they aren't in the same grouping. Rake and trail can be alterd by buying a new fork. You're stuck with frame geometry so that's where you look closely. Hence, I initially bought a frame set with 73 degree frame geometry (Cdale) and changed out the fork with something a little bit quicker. Changed the handling characteristics completely. Frame geometry didn't change.