Originally Posted by
timtak
I think that your straight answers are enlightening. I am grateful too.
Your post above inspired me to read
Sheldon Brown's article on vintage bikes, which made me think that a long seat post and stem are part of the the way to make a modern bike vintaged and remove the influence of lawyers and criteriums. Reading it seems that to make a modern bike vintage one would need more flexible forks and rear, longer seat tube and (to reduce the influence of criteriums / racing in packs) a longer effective top tube. Lanced may go towards being vintaged. It also made me think I need to put my saddle further back.
Bikes have been raced in 'packs' and in criterium racing for a very very long time. Not sure how lawyers figure into the conversation. I just sold two now 'vintage' frames. Both were Italian steel. Both were very comfortable riding solo, with a few friends, in road races, criteriums, and even time trials after changing the drop bars to aero bars. Both bikes were ridden extensively in Japan.
I also had a 1973-4 Motobecane Le Champion that I bought in 1978. Yep, the geometry was more relaxed than the later Italian frames. It was also used to time trial, road, and crit race as well as just riding and touring. My new bike has a modern carbon frame with a sloping top tube, but the saddle height is the same as always, the effective top tube length the same, and it rides better than any of the bikes mentioned above, but it's just not as pretty. Haven't had any lawyers comment about legal issues, but I have ridden with a couple.
I guess I'm puzzled about some of your notions of bicycle design. Sure, different geometries have different qualities and ride feel, steering response, etc... Careful about slamming your saddle back (that was popular in the LeMond era) as it's easy to cause injury making sudden changes to your riding position. Do what your body needs, not what someone else's bike set up looks like.