Originally Posted by
SquidPuppet
That's completely false. Monaco is perfect? Macau is perfect? Long beach is perfect? The Isle of Man is perfect? Those are awful public roads with extremely poor surfaces. Horrible in fact. They race those circuits on slicks.
All closed circuit race tracks that I have raced on were FAR from perfect. Bumps, tar joints, repair scabs, you name it.
Monaco and Macau are literally resurfaced every year before the race. None of these road courses are going to have the same conditions as an open road.
Originally Posted by
SquidPuppet
^ Then why do the most prestigious and fastest racing series use slicks on public road courses? Again, grooves in a tire won't help it grip a spot of oil, or a squashed rodent, or an expansion joint, or a man hole cover.
No one is talking about rodents, expansion joints, or manhole covers. In fact, we’re specifically talking about the conditions you encounter on a wet road. Remember, at no point have I disagreed that slicks are ideal for a bicycle on dry asphalt.
Bring up driving with slicks on the street with a bunch of racecar drivers, trackday junkies or virtually any driving enthusiasts and I guarantee they will all consider it a horrible idea. Roads are unpredictable.
Originally Posted by
SquidPuppet
Yes. They are used when there is standing or running water to avoid hydroplaning. ALL drivers/riders will stay out on a wet track on their slicks as long as possible until they are forced to pit for grooved tires to deal with standing water.
No disagreement.
Originally Posted by
SquidPuppet
The laws of physics and how they relate to a contact patch change when you remove and engine from a vehicle? How do the laws of physics know that the engine was removed? The forces that a bicycle tire experiences are less extreme than a car or motorcycle, but they are still the SAME forces. All the rules still apply.
Physics absolutely does NOT work that way. The rules apply, but phenomena that exist at one scale do not necessarily exist at another.
Within a few minutes of use, the racecar slicks you brought up are no smoother than a textured bicycle tire. You wouldn’t consider there to be less rubber on the road because of that, would you? If we added the same texture seen on racing bicycle tires to racecar slicks, it would a) have very little impact on the grip and b) be worn away almost immediately.
Originally Posted by
SquidPuppet
You've hit the nail on the head. Thank You. Racers will often (appear to) wear/drink/eat/ride whichever brand pays the most, regardless of their personal belief of the products' superiority or not.
Literally the exact opposite of what I said. A rider sponsored by Specialized, which has a huge budget, will ride tires made by FMB, which doesn’t advertise at all. They ride those tires because they believe they’re better for racing.
Originally Posted by
SquidPuppet
Just saying that won't make it true. A bicycle tire manufacturer need to sell tires, and they need something to sell those tires. Having a STAR rider on your tire helps sell it. Tread patterns are the designer logos of the tire world. It's the same with DOT approved car and motorcycle tires. Car tire manufacturers even make claims that their tread patterns are quieter and ride better than their competitor's tires. It's competition to gain market share. Nothing more.
Despite your cynical belief that these companies only care about marketing, product development actual does mean innovation. All tires are not made the same.
Originally Posted by
SquidPuppet
Because that is the reality. Improved Lap times have been PROVING this for over 60 years. If less rubber equaled more grip, racers would use narrower tires or tires with tread patterns. They don't. It really is that simple.
Bicycle races use skinny tires for the obvious speed benefits associated with the reduced weight. But they do so at the cost of cornering grip.
The argument is not that less rubber equals more grip. The argument is that we don’t know the specifics of the interaction between a <1mm tread texture of unknown durometer and a road surface of varying texture and substance.
This discussion isn’t skinny vs. wide, don’t turn it into that. I’m a proponent of wide tires, but that’s irrelevant.
Originally Posted by
SquidPuppet
No, there are not too many factors. Bigger tires equal more grip. Shrinking the contact patch reduces grip. It aint any more complicated than that. A slippery, dusty, uneven road surface will reduce grip. Removing rubber from the tire won't magically change the road surface.
Imagine a hypothetical situation in which the tread pattern of a tire perfectly matched the coarse surface of asphalt. Would that tire not have a bigger contact patch than a slick? Friction is not as simple as homogeneous material against homogeneous material, although high-school physics problems present it as such. In the real world, friction has two mechanisms: adhesion and hysteresis. What that boils down to is micro (adhesion) and macro (hysteresis) structures interlocking. Asphalt has a rough texture and a pneumatic rubber tire is soft, and the interaction between the two is the reason why tires have such good grip on a road.
There are many, many academic papers published on the topic of the frictional interaction between tires and asphalt. Assuming that we know all there is to know would be foolish.
Originally Posted by
SquidPuppet
True. And this is why we see tread patterns on bicycle tires. The "Safety Placebo Effect" that we have all been exposed to for our entire lives, and Fashion (Marketing). People who are not involved in the racing industry or follow racing as a hobby have spent their entire lives being told by all forms of advertising that tread patterns are where grip comes from. The manufacturers are forced to advertise this way because the governments forces them to sell treaded ALL Season tires for year round use. The general public thinks slicks are slippery and dangerous. And that's to be expected because it's what they have been told their entire lives.
The absence of rubber does not create grip. It's really no more complicated than that.
It’s no more complicated than that, in your opinion. Your only evidence showing that slicks are the best choice for a bicycle on asphalt, rain or shine, is that racecars usually use slicks.