Originally Posted by
RubeRad
I think in these two cases, this actually helps me. Rolling right into view and waiting in the crosswalk would be startling to a stopped driver waiting at a red light, and I cannot fail to be noticed. When the left-turn signal goes green, cars are always very tentative, I get off the line quicker than they do (and am ahead of them in the crosswalk anyways), and I am almost never passed during the turn. And the intersections are quite wide, and left-turning traffic normally tends to cut tighter rather than wider (even without cyclists there), so I make an exaggeratedly wide turn, aiming for the bike lane, and feel I am never in danger from oncoming left-turners.
There are any number of ways that filtering to the front of a left turning line of cars can go wrong. What happens if you are in the act of filtering and the light turns green? You could easily be in a position where the motorist won't...or can't or doesn't...notice you. Being in a location where a motorist doesn't expect another vehicle is never a good place to be. If the motorist is trying to beat the light or beat some on-coming traffic, the chances that they will hit you are much greater than if
you control the flow of traffic around you.
And, while you might be able to start moving more quickly than a car, the advantage is very short lived. You could easily be half way through the intersection and a second car could be trying to pass you on the inside. If the second (or even third) motorist doesn't notice you, the results don't come out too well.
Originally Posted by
RubeRad
That's a good point; in the case of my two intersections, there is no right turn or driveway for at least 1/4 mile. But I think that if I had rolled to the front of the crosswalk, the startled driver would not suddenly forget I was there.
You are assuming that you have "startled" the motorist but I think that is assuming too much. Far too many motorists aren't that attentive. If you are directly in front of their hood ornament, they will probably notice you. Off to the side, they probably won't.
Originally Posted by
RubeRad
Situations and particular intersections are all different. This morning I came to one of my stoplight left turns with timing such that the left-turn arrow went green as I was crossing to the left turn lane(s). I instantly recognized that, even though I maybe could have filtered with a burst of speed, the best course of action was to ride up behind the back stopped car and head into the intersection in turn.
I've never found a situation where I proceed any differently than get into the left turn lane and take my share out of the middle.
Originally Posted by
Leisesturm
This! And only this. Not only do you "risk falling behind", you absolutely will fall behind. At least two more cars could get through the arrow if you weren't in the way. Talk about rage? I'm not sure why any cyclist would want to put themselves in that kind of situation regularly. I have to assume that the people advocating a placement in the center of the left turn lanes do not live in high traffic areas where these lanes can have close to a dozen cars. And yes, cars, are supposed to turn into the left-most of multiple lanes in the receiving road but no one expect a bicycle to do that. But it really doesn't matter, no one else will be in the right hand lane yet, so a cyclist can do whatever makes sense for the situation at hand.
You are assuming something that just isn't true. I live in a city and do most of my biking in a city. I always position myself in the middle of the left turn lane behind the last car in line. Frankly, I can't believe that anyone who rides in traffic would filter on a
left turn. Would you filter on a left turn if the light for traffic going straight is green? I know I wouldn't because I'm not a fan of being between moving cars. Why do it when the light is red? There's no advantage.
Originally Posted by
Leisesturm
I don't have to tell you, but it appears that I have to point out to others, again, that a bicycle is NOT a vehicle. What drivers expect of other vehicles is IRRELEVANT.
Perhaps you should look up the regulations in your state. Bicycles
are vehicles in a legal sense in all 50 state of the US. They are subject to the same rules and regulations as motor vehicles. A lot of people fought for a very long time to get bicycles that designation. If you look up your state's statues, language is probably similar to Colorado's
Colorado Statutes : TITLE 42 VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC: REGULATION
OF VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC : ARTICLE 4 REGULATION OF VEHICLES
AND TRAFFIC : PART 14 OTHER OFFENSES : 42-4-1412. Operation of
bicycles and other human-powered vehicles.
Operation of bicycles and other human-powered vehicles.
(1) Every person riding a bicycle shall have all of the rights and duties
applicable to the driver of any other vehicle under this article, except
as to special regulations in this article and except as to those provisions
which by their nature can have no application. Said riders shall
comply with the rules set forth in this section and section 42-4-221,
and when using streets and highways within incorporated cities and
towns, shall be subject to local ordinances regulating the operation of
bicycles as provided in section 42-4-111.
And what operators expect of other vehicles is extremely
RELEVANT. Traffic works best and works safest if vehicle are operated in a predictable manner.
Originally Posted by
Leisesturm
A car cannot split lanes, a motorcycle can, but probably should not, split lanes, but bicycles should always split lanes, unless they have their own dedicated bike lane. FRAP. Its the law everywhere, except in the minds of VC advocates that do not speak for the majority of sane and defensive cyclists. The only time I would be in the center of a left turn lane is if I was the first to arrive at the light. Also if it was a single lane for everything. I also might stay in the center, or even to the left of a lane behind the car in front. I would turn when s/he does using their vehicle to protect my right side. As soon as I get through the turn I would be dropping back and heading to my usual position of FRAP. That's really the way to do it.
"As far right as practicable" only applies to moving in a straight line. Every US state vehicle statue that I've seen states is again similar to Colorado's statue for left turns
42-4-901. Required position and method of turning.
(b) Left turns. The driver of a vehicle intending to turn left shall approach the turn in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction of travel of such vehicle. Whenever practicable, the left turn shall be made to the left of the center of the intersection so as to leave the intersection or other location in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the same direction as such vehicle on the roadway being entered.
Since bicycles are vehicles, this applies to bicycles as well.