either / or. with german your sentences should be -- and probably are -- constructed perfectly. its my/our stupid english rules and non-logic that muddle them all up when we read. in german -- so far as my studies are concerned -- there is perfect pitch and clarity in sentence structure and execution of language. i think i just read your response and didn't logically apply it to my question, and i thought it was an answer to someone else's question. anyhow, thanks again for the help. should we pass on market or something, hail me to the sidewalk and i will happily buy you at least 2 beers. blue chesini or sometimes a fuscia maruishi.