I talked about bikes that if in my post above. I have had many bikes that didn't fit. Wasn't going to learn until years later I should have a longer reach tot he handlebars than can be done on most bikes without ridiculous stems. As a result, I rode those bikes with my stems slammed (And hit the HBs many, many times with my knees, sometimes hard.

Until I had my eyes opened, all my stems had dents in their throats. I now have custom stems on two bikes plus 130, 135 amd 140 stock stems on others. The insight I got 29 years ago was that I could move my handlebars along a line of "slope" 2 cm horizontally and 1 cm in line with the steerer and not change my basic position. A very useful number. Now I love my HBs on that same line but much further forward. A lot better upwind. Biggest drawback is climbing very steep hills out of the saddle on wet roads or sand. (Rear tire traction with my weight that far forward.) But out of the saddle climbing all day is wonderful on that same setup.

So now when I see slammed stems I think "he's not enlightened yet". (Edit: Enlightened threadless riders have a spacer or two on top. See my post first page.)

Ben