Well that took several decades + 22 posts to finally understand the support for TT length being the right way to assess the correct frame size!

What I understand now is that it is easier to get in the ball park of frame size because of the ability to get the saddle in the right location relative to the bb. The real challenge is to get a bike with the TT the right length with the associated stem and bar physical dimensions right, the head tube angle correct an a fork offset that yields a fantastic ride for many miles!

Every deviation from what ever the current proper fit is, has multiple impacts from tolerance of how far your can ride to physical pain somewhere in time or right away! I wish my bikes were as adaptable as my body!

OK so now that y'all have calibrated my thinking about TT length and stem length, what about hand position relative to the axle? Should we call that hand trail - the distance between the vertical line through the axle and the location of the hands (based on the center of the palm)?

Does it matter? Jim says it does based on the difference between upright riding and drops. Of course the weight distribution contributed to that but, he said he couldn't ride in an upright position and pedal a straight line. When does "hand trail" become an issue?