OP here with follow-up to the cheap grips with bar ends. Reason for low price is casting flaw that can be fixed in minutes with a round file to remove excess material. Once installed they are tight and do not move. Getting grips in good position only took a couple rides. Ended up with flats just slightly below horz. Bar ends - a different story - still working on the angle. As mentioned natural handshake position is good starting point. I have tried everything between horz and vert. So far nothing feels best so I just left them in handshake. Currently riding about 2.5 hours and combination of new hand positions, some standing, hands free with hand shaking and slightly lower tire pressure has helped a bunch. Not gone but century on MTB is beginning to look doable. Still thinking about prof fit by Tad Hughes. He did my road bike - amazing difference. Thanks for all the help.