With the better, larger close ups, I agree about it not being dents pulled out, or crash damage repair. As much as I lust after a early 70s Giro or Professional Bottecchia that still seems high for this frame set. I believe the second frame is the older of the two, single set of water bottle cage bosses, and external top tube cable guides, bring pre-86 or there about's, to mind. [MENTION=57478]repechage[/MENTION]can better speak to the dating than I ever could hope to though.