As in interesting aside to this conversation. I got a bike recently that came with a set of wheels identified by ex team members as the standard Team Saturn wheels from back in the 90s. Nice alloy wheels that I will be setting up and using. But weight-wise they have been hugely passed by even modern clinchers. A set of Fulcrum Racing 3's with standard butyl tubes and 700 x 25 Conti GP 4000s II clinchers comes in a pound lighter than the complete tubular setup they used to use. So now we say after 25 years clinchers have caught up and passed the tubulars of the 90s, weight wise....