Originally Posted by
elcruxio
Steel is about three times stiffer than aluminum. It's also around three times heavier. Those are about the only acceptable objective facts that can be said in this flame war that you're trying to start. When it comes to bike frames it comes more down to design than material choice. Steel frames can be made stiff and aluminum frames can be made noodly. With modern manufacturing processes and tubing choices manufacturers have a relatively easy job of choosing which type of bike frame they want to create.
I'm not trying to start a flame war. I just know from lots of past experience...about 15 years worth now...that the mere mention of aluminum for touring will get someone's knickers in a knot.
That said, let's address your "only acceptable objective facts" statement. Yes, steel is stiffer than aluminum and aluminum is lighter. But those aren't the only "facts" about the material. You stated right there another "acceptable, objective fact". It's the way the material is used. Steel
can be used to make a stiff frame but it isn't because that's not what people are looking for in a touring frame. They
want that soft, noodly ride because it feels good in a parking lot. They get used to it when they put a load on the bike but the bike suffers from the same problems as scale is finding. In other words, the bike is not stiff enough to ride out of the saddle without the frame flexing.
Originally Posted by
elcruxio
It also needs to be kept in mind that the generalizations and wisdoms of ye olden days do not apply to modern frames since nowdays we have hydro forming, CNC's, oversized tubing and a myriad of other bike related standards / technologies to allow manufacturers to achieve either stiff or noodly frames. It stands however that noodly frames seem to be a thing of the past except with maybe smaller boutique manufacturers since all bicycle frames sold in the EU need to pass EU bicycle stiffness regulations, which are pretty strict. This applies globally since bike manufacturers are not likely going to start making different product lines for different continents just because they can vary stiffness levels. More likely is that they'll accept whatever regulations are in place and go with that.
I agree that modern frames are using all kinds of technologies and techniques to make the ride more tuned. The problem is that all of those technologies and techniques are being applied to aluminum but not steel. A steel touring bike made today hasn't changed from a steel touring bike made 40 years ago. They are still being made with the same round tube sets of the same diameters and same butting as those made in 1983.
And that ride from 1983 is what everyone seems to want in touring bikes. They want a frame that provides a nice "springy" ride. "Springy" and "comfortable" are the opposite of stiff and, as you pointed out above, are the result of design and use of the materials. Because of the use of small diameter tubing, the bikes aren't stiff enough to stand up to out of the saddle pedaling.
Originally Posted by
elcruxio
Now as to not being able to pedal standing up, that can happen if the frame in question is in fact noodly. With any modern touring bike flexes or wobbles should not happen when doing that. It certainly does not happen with my 240lbs of body weight, 60lbs of gear and my puny 62cm steel LHT. It did happen with my late Trek FX 7.3 which was aluminum. It wasn't however a touring bike and wasn't designed to carry such loads comfortably.
I beg to differ. I agree that a bike should flex and wobble but they do. I've tested an LHT. I found the ride without a load to be exactly the same as the ride given to me by my 1984 Miyata 610. That's the reason I went with the Cannondale when I decided to buy a new touring bike. The Cannodale was stiffer in the parking lot and, as a result, stiffer when loaded because the bike has frame that is designed to be stiffer.
Originally Posted by
elcruxio
As to OP's question, he did not want to buy a new bike, he wanted to know how to manage with his current one. Since it's a old MTB it's likely it's made of relatively low diameter steel tubing which can in fact be quite flexy and thus difficult to handle with heavy touring loads. If OP did want to buy a new frame, the material should be least of his concerns since every well designed modern touring bike will achieve sufficient stiffness to climb out of the saddle / throw the bike around even when heavily loaded regardless of frame material.
First, old mountain bikes used larger diameter tubing from the beginning than road tubing. The bikes were designed to do something entirely different from what road bikes of the era were supposed to do so they made them beefier and stiffer than comparable road bikes of the era. However, they didn't make them all that stiff. Load them up with stuff and they will suffer the same problem as old (and new) steel touring frames which were beefier than road bikes as well.
Frankly, there's not a lot you can do to this bike to make it any better for riding out of the saddle. There is very little scale can do to "manage" the ride. It is still going to be flexy when riding out of the saddle. If 20 lbs makes it hard to handle, adding more weight won't improve it. The choices are to
not climb out of the saddle or to adopt a out of saddle climbing style that requires very little body movement while standing. Riding without moving your body is awkward and requires more effort than just plugging away in the saddle.