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Old 04-05-20 | 09:47 PM
  #66  
Kuromori
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Originally Posted by bulgie
Couple things I wanted to add, hit Submit too soon.

Peugeot and Motobecane both used internal fillet brazing, I think in the '80s, maybe starting late '70s? Motobecane called their process "inexternal".

Some Peugeots I have seen somehow managed to not let any of the filler metal get out -- close to zero external fillet. Looks scary to me, though I assume they were strong enough.

The other thing I wanted to mention was that unlike Jamie Swan's preforms (see the flickr link in my last post), which were a single ring, I recommend multiple loops of thinner filler wire, formed into a sort of spring. This gives multiple advantages.

Think about how a ring touches the inside of the tube in a circular line with close to zero thickness, and that's if the ring is in a plane perpendicular to the tube axis. The ring can rotate, like a butterfly valve in a carburetor, to where it's no longer touching in a circular line, just touching in two places that are close to mathematical points, almost zero area of contact. A "spring" is more like a cylinder, can't rotate out perpendicular like a single-wind ring can. Even just two windings is usually enough to prevent rotating out of plane.

Plus a spring has more contact with the tube, for faster heating by conduction, and each wind has less thermal mass "behind" that contact area, so it melts faster.

The springs need to be wound to a diameter that doesn't quite fit into the tube in their relaxed shape -- they need springing down while inserting, so they're tightly pressed against the inside of the tube.

I somewhat doubt Peugeot and Moto used springs like I describe; their preforms might have been something closer to the final fillet shape. But unless someone who worked there back then chimes in, we'll probably never know. That info was proprietary and I doubt they gave much away in public documents or ads. I'd be glad to be wrong though, anybody got more info from back then? Patent application? (Though I doubt this was patentable, being such an ancient method.)

Anyway I think those bikes are a bit ugly, so this is not something I want to emulate. Jamie Swan also said he would do a fillet pass over those joints whether they needed it or not, for the aesthetic look people expect in a lugless joint.

Mark B
CCM which I think licensed the technology, at least for some joints, just used undersized ring preforms so they would just fall down the tubes without getting stuck. When the part of the ring touching steel starts melting, it quickly collapses so the preform fully liquidizes. This of course requires fixtures to allow gravity to work. Fillet size or shape probably wasn't very important, just having an easy way to feed filler for capillary action and easy inspection of penetration (just see if you can see any filler from the outside). Surface tension makes the filler tend to naturally form a fillet in the shape of a meniscus anyways and bulk properties of filler in the fillet aren't the same as what's actually in the joint.

I think for the kind of preform you imagine, they'd use what looks like a slit tube. Companies working with industrial scale brazing usually just order preforms, which may or may not be made from rod, but are often made from sheet, and the major filler manufacturers will usually make preforms to spec. It was not uncommon in mass produced lugged frames either, and there were also vintage department store bikes that appear to have internal fillets with really bad pressed miters. I think the varsity ST/TT joint is also like this.

I think it looks cleaner up close than welded joints at least and well, similar aesthetics from 10 feet away, and pairs really nicely with those pug stripes.
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