Mark- Thanks for not being sore at my stealing your comments from the CR list. I figure I've got about 2500 hours of frame building under my belt, about twice that amount if you include the practice and other fabrication projects. But this is over 42 years...

Your further comments about the manor of the hours are spot on IMO. I can see two points of rapid advance of my skills and focus. The first was the two week Eisentraut class in 1979 (Rutland, VT. His last East coast class IIRC). This introduced me to the math, specific design ideas and gave me a chance to watch a true master. Number two was in 1985 when I worked at Cyclery North in Chicago. Over 6 months I built (or completed a couple of sort of started) frames, again in the company of a very good builder (Tommy Winn). Both times I came away with new and improved abilities. I did attend one of Doug Fattic's brazing classes much later but by then my techniques were pretty much written in stone, much to Doug's disappointment it seemed at times.

Old timers here know that I have long suggested working with/under a mentor if at all possible. The motivation to better your teacher is a strong one. Andy