Lee Katz and Turin when it was on Clark St is the shop and person I was trying to remember. I bet Lee could shed some light on Eisentraut giving a framebuilding class and what influence he had one the scene in Chicago. Marc Madot (spelling?) before he went to help Richard Schwinn at the very beginning of Waterford built frames in Chicago under the trade name Phydeux (I'm not sure how he spelled his brand name. It was a play on letters with the spelling in French but the pronunciation in English like fido a generic name for a pet dog). Also right now over in the Classic and vintage they had a picture of the workers at Turin in the early 70's and besides Lee among the group there Ron Boi - another Chicago based builder who retired a year or two ago. i didn't know he had any association with Turin. He got his start building in the early 70's before me. I remember asking him a very long time ago about his training and he said self taught.