timtak

I think you will find that I was writing about different times. The importance of being aerodynamic will often be (depending on the amateur rider's priorities)
Pro in a time trial > Solo Amateur rider > Pro in a peloton (@ofajen is right on my being "stuck" on this equation)

Tell that to the amateurs who are paying nearly 13,000 USD for a Pinarello Dogma F

You missed a "n't" there, but reading it in, is it true that "No one is arguing that riding in the peloton isn't different"?

I think that when people walk into the local BS shop, attendants, as people have been saying on this thread, "this is the fastest bike in the world, ridden by the pros, the pros, the pros this and the pros that, the pros who get millions in prize money, so you can be sure it is the fastest, the best, the most sophisticated, and well worth it bike in the world, and only 13,000 USD."

There is an omission there. "Oh by the way, you do ride in an aero line, in team races in a peloton where aerodynamics matter as much as if you were drafting a truck, don't you?" The local BS shop attendants do not tend to check up on this, because if they did, and they helped the amateur find the bike suitable for the way the amateur rides, then I think they would be saying "for aggressive riding, and it doesn't have to be just racing, but when you are right and you want to ride a little harder," you should either put a drop stem on your Dogma F or purchase some "old junk" for about one 20th of the price, and you will ride faster, with a more easily maintainable bike.

You are right, no one argues that riding in the peloton is the same as riding solo, but the omission leads to that which I think may be purchase mistakes.

By the way, I do sometimes draft trucks and buses and I don't put myself in a tuck when I do so, because there is no need, and because I might bump into the bus if it braked. Pros, and amateur crit riders, do not get down low when drafting the pack for similar reasons, I think.

Indeed. I am recommending the "old junk" with brifters, or new unsponsored Chinese and Taiwanese made bikes with horizontal top tubes. I am part of the market.

Very true Otto. You sum up my position well.

I think that there are many people who want to ride "comfortably" and looking at the scenery, and who have back problems, and whose belly size does not allow them to go low. When I was like that it wasn't so much that going low was "uncomfortable" but that my knees and my belly could not coexist. But as my shape returned to normal, I had this weird parachute style of riding a road bike. It took me a while to realise that I needed to do as Robbie is doing, in order (again in Cobb's words) "for aggressive riding, and it doesn't have to be just racing, but when you are right and you want to ride a little harder."

Riding with a chest parachute is fine if you are a pro in a peloton, or if you want to ride comfortably, slowly, looking at the scenery, but not if you want to lose more weight, keep the weight off, enjoy the thrill of going fast even though your legs are getting older and weaker, if you want to feel like you are flying (as i did again this morning partly thanks to this thread, which seems to fuel my cycling).

I have heard that theory but I don't think it is true. I think that probably humans scavenged the kills of faster hunters (quadrupeds) which they kept at bay with their human tools and teamwork.

Who suggests this "nonsense" I am unsure. Cobb says of Robbie's position that he could ride that all day. The "could" is important here. I think he means to say Robbie's position is so comfortable he could ride like that all day, not that Cobb (or I) recommend riding in the hooks up Alpe-d'Huez.

Why do you keep insisting on the pros Kapusta? Is it not enough that John Cobb's advice is from a paid and celebrated advisor to the pros, advising someone (Robbie) who rides like we do?

There is no Pro model for the amateur ride, but for some reason, you keep insisting upon a pro model. Why is this?

You are not supposed to care about Robbie does, but about what John Cobb (paid advisor to at least one World beater) says that Robbie should do with his setup, bearing in mind that Robbie's solo riding is similar to many non competitive amateur riders, like myself.

The important difference, as pointed out by John Cobb in the video, is the headtube height, which partly determines the drops to wheel distance. I like to have my drops not far above my front wheel like Robbie because, that has allowed me to go fast and stay not too fat, so far, thanks to members, encouragement.

Correction. The Pinarello Dogma F has a pretty aggressive geometry for a contemporary bike. I may try and save up.
https://ciclicorsa.com/shop/dogma-f-...complete-bike/