Originally Posted by
seypat
Sweet, another chance to post the film/video! If you want to see the setups from yesteryear, in action, from all angles, this is probably the best way to look at it. Plus, there is cool surfer music. You can discuss all you want.
https://www.nfb.ca/film/60_cycles_en/
Thanks. Groovy.
Originally Posted by
Kapusta
After three pages, facts expire, and
timtak need not be hampered by them.
Now he has shifted his argument to being in favor of bikes set up for a “jackknifed” riding position…. Or as people who actually understand anything about cycling call it: “slack seat tube angles”. (Whether STAs were actually any slacker back then… I don’t know. And I am sure he does not either. He was wrong about head tubes)
This of course completely flies in the face of his (warped) notion that “amateur” cyclists are more like time trail riders…. Who in fact run much STEEPER seat tube angles, as evidenced by the picture or the time trialist he himself posted last week. (But apparently that no longer counts because it was 10 pages ago and therefore expired as evidence).
Dealing with your second point first, I think that amateur cyclists are like time trialists in so far as they are not racing anyone except perhaps the clock, and not drafting anyone so, if they enjoy speed, and since they need less visibility than those riding in group, they would be well advised to get into more aerodynamic position than group riding cyclists.
As far as I know there are two ways of getting into more aerodynamic position.
One of them is to use the standard time trial position used today by folding the top of your body down and making it narrow like an upside down L shape like this
Γ generally with toes pointed down. Of course there is a lot more refinement involved.
The other way as, I have explained previously, and as demonstrated and explained in Cobb's video, is to rotate down and forwards so far that you rotate your hips forward as well, resulting in your weight being supported, not by your sit bones but by the abductor muscles in the back of your thighs (as I think Jacques is doing when looking at his watch). Doing this you do not need to change the seat tube angle to get into "jackknifed" (not my term) position, and an ankling, heel down, pedalling style, where ones legs and arms point in the same direction to an extent, like this
⊂.
As an aside, Carbonfiberboy and I feel that the modern pro-peloton tends to use the toe down style of cycling in all stages of the tour, and that ankling = being bunched up at the back = jacknifing (a new term, introduced on this thread) has gone to an extent out of style. I am keen on this old-school style less because it is faster (the jury is out, Carbonfiberboy and Koala Logs thinks it is better for longer rides, Carbonfiberboy for climbs) but because my butt muscles got weak, and in the modern style where one pushes down there is very little upwards pull (so much so that it is argued that clipless pedals are hardly needed apparently). In the old-school bunch/jackknife/ankling style there is forward push followed by a backwards (not upwards) pull which gives my old butt a good and rejuvenating exercise and helps prevent painful knees, and weak hips prevalent in old men, and women. I read that Mike Tyson (a year my junior) is now walking with a stick. He should do some ankling.
There is more in depth discussion of Cobb's sitting position here
Riding Position Discovery
Tim