Originally Posted by
Kontact
Let me cut to the chase:
I said I have seen elbows that are not conformed to the flanges, as have my associates. And you are calling us liars.
Calling someone a liar and calling someone mistaken are two very different things.
I haven't disputed that you or your associates have seen elbows which haven't conformed to the flanges. I have disputed the significance and the arguments you've provided for reasoning said significance.
Now I'll probable regret this because I think I know what you'll answer (if you do answer) but with the wheels you've seen where the spokes haven't conformed to the flanges, have you or your associates by chance done a comprehensive analysis of the wheel and the spoke tensions? And if yes, what were the findings?
Could it be in the realm of possibility that if the elbows haven't conformed to the flange, the issue with the wheel is not in fact setting of the heads but instead insufficient tension and/or stress relieving?
It isn't "authority" when you are the witness and practitioner of the information presented. I'm not an expert about something, I am the first person source of the information.
Sadly there aren't many studies into wheel dynamics or the significance of various factors that go into building a wheel. That doesn't however change the fact that anecdotes aren't evidence even when they're being presented as fact via claim to authority.
If what you've been taught isn't written and published, isn't tested objectively, isn't reviewed by others, it's not really all that meaningful or relevant. Even the publishing thing with enough analysis of what is actually going on would be sufficient for discourse. But when you pull such big claims and just expect people to believe you unquestioningly because you're a pro who was trained by pro's, well. It's meaningless.
So I didn't read all of this. In the face of the fact that you think I'm a liar, there is nothing to discuss.
Suit yourself. But don't go claiming the moral high ground and pull the pigeon chess maneuver when you've misunderstood what you've read.
But saying that setting the elbows is such an extreme extra step that only straight pull spokes should be used is frankly idiotic. Or it means that you don't know what we've been talking about: It's pushing the spoke in with your thumb.
You came out swinging with the argument that wheels pop spokes because the heads / elbows haven't been set properly. If it is something you can do with the press of a thumb, it is something 1000 newtons of force will also pull in line.
It is simply not feasible that when one misses a thumb push the wheel begins popping spokes left and right when we consider the forces involved in a bicycle wheel.