Originally Posted by
elcruxio
Calling someone a liar and calling someone mistaken are two very different things.
I haven't disputed that you or your associates have seen elbows which haven't conformed to the flanges. I have disputed the significance and the arguments you've provided for reasoning said significance.
Now I'll probable regret this because I think I know what you'll answer (if you do answer) but with the wheels you've seen where the spokes haven't conformed to the flanges, have you or your associates by chance done a comprehensive analysis of the wheel and the spoke tensions? And if yes, what were the findings?
Could it be in the realm of possibility that if the elbows haven't conformed to the flange, the issue with the wheel is not in fact setting of the heads but instead insufficient tension and/or stress relieving?
Sadly there aren't many studies into wheel dynamics or the significance of various factors that go into building a wheel. That doesn't however change the fact that anecdotes aren't evidence even when they're being presented as fact via claim to authority.
If what you've been taught isn't written and published, isn't tested objectively, isn't reviewed by others, it's not really all that meaningful or relevant. Even the publishing thing with enough analysis of what is actually going on would be sufficient for discourse. But when you pull such big claims and just expect people to believe you unquestioningly because you're a pro who was trained by pro's, well. It's meaningless.
Suit yourself. But don't go claiming the moral high ground and pull the pigeon chess maneuver when you've misunderstood what you've read.
You came out swinging with the argument that wheels pop spokes because the heads / elbows haven't been set properly. If it is something you can do with the press of a thumb, it is something 1000 newtons of force will also pull in line.
It is simply not feasible that when one misses a thumb push the wheel begins popping spokes left and right when we consider the forces involved in a bicycle wheel.
You'll need to quote me the studies and white papers that lead you to your various conclusions. Until then, you are the inexperienced doubter and I am the one correctly practicing and observing a trade craft for four decades that started with the studies at Wheelsmith.
And not like some monkey following directions, either. I had the top SAT score in my high school, went to the number ten university in the US, had a successful career as military and commercial pilot, investigated aircraft crashes and got into Mensa. I have thought an awful lot about why some things break and why even damaged elbows don't, and the fact that I can fix a wheel that is breaking spokes by simply manipulating the bends and tensions tells me that the people like you that "know better", don't.
You have never done any of those things with wheels, and simply aren't qualified to have an opinion. It is tiresome, and screws people who need help out of useful advice because the armchair brigade takes the useful advice and hides it in the noise.