oh, i'm not claiming that surly invented that geometry. at all. by 'well thought' i guess i also meant the interchangeability of its components, plethora of rack options, etc. and yeah, the line between touring and cross gets more and more blurry these days. however, i know of no other equivalent frameset that comes much cheaper than $400 these days. if there are any, i'd sure like to know about it.