Flatballer

Write to someone higher up.

mattm

My guess is that she didn't hear you clearly at this point, or maybe didn't believe you.

I wonder if you had spoken to her at that point and pleaded your case, things might have turned out differently.

mattm

That's super hardcore man!

I drove to said crit (Oakland, Elite district champs), and didn't win. 9th, but meh, might as well be DFL in some ways.

There was a split of ~10 guys up the road for 20 mins or so of the race, and the pack didn't seem interested in chasing, with the big teams already up there.

My plan for the race was to mark the winner from last year, who wins most things locally. He wasn't in the move but had team mates up there.

So I figure I'll give it a shot and bridge up to the group, with someone from defending champ's team on my wheel. We made the bridge (me pulling with no help from him, of course), but our group was caught about a lap later... FML

Hectic last few laps; I was 'up there' but got swarmed with 1 to go and didn't make up ground.

Fun race though! Sad race season is over. I want more.

grolby

If I understand you correctly, the pit was before the finish line, right at the end of the lap, yes? So you crossed the finish line ahead of riders who were still racing on course. And you should never, ever do that. Sure, your intentions were pure and you didn't actually interfere with anyone who was racing. But why leave any doubt? Why insist that the official sort that out for you when you could have avoided this entire problem through the very simple solution of not riding on the course between the pit and the finish line? This is not complicated - you must NEVER enter a course in front of riders who are racing. That means don't enter the course in front of the finish line while a race is finishing. Don't do it! Don't do it with malicious intent, sure, whatever, but also don't do it even if there's no way you think you're going to interfere with another rider. You said yourself that it was only 100 meters or so on an active course. Is walking or riding that distance off the course such a burden? I don't think your anger is justified at all. Chalk this up as a lesson learned and don't enter a course before the finish line while a race is finishing. Perhaps the official should simply have warned you after hearing you out, but I kind of don't blame her for not wanting to sort out the details and determine precisely what happened. It's a very simple rule and you violated it. I assume you won't in the future. Everyone will forget about it, no one will think you're a jerk and you'll move on with your life.

rankin116

She announced before I started that lap that the course was open, and we 'had time for maybe two laps'. There was no indication that riders were still on course. Yes, I made sure before coming through that I wasn't near anyone, to be safe. I always do that. Being respectful to riders on course is an issue that I have always taken seriously.

It was a big communication mixup, that had she discussed it with me afterwards, could have realized, but she had no intention of hearing anything. She wanted to make a show of it, which is why I'm upset. And for the next few races and announcements made sure to say when people were still on course, implying she realized she could have better communicated that earlier.

And I don't give two ****s if people think I'm a jerk or anything along those lines, this has nothing to do with perceived perceptions of me. Likely myself and the other guy are going to be the only people that remember this event at all. This has everything to do with her making a snap judgement and not being open to a discussion about something before issuing a penalty, especially to brand new racer.

Officials have difficult jobs, not disputing that. But part of doing that job is making informed decisions.

shovelhd

Rankin, Grolby nailed it. It is common to open the course after the winner crosses the line, but you must start riding after the line and stay behind every racer still racing. You did that until you cut through the pit. You did not know how many racers were behind you, so you did not know whether you were interfering with racers still on the course. Then you crossed the finish line with a race still in progress. With some of the crazy number sequences we see, that can mess up scoring. Don't ever do that.

All that said, her approach to handling the situation would not have been mine. I will leave it at that.

dz_nuzz

Officials definitely make mistakes and stupid decisions. One time I got pulled out of a breakaway because they thought I had either cut the course (It was a circuit race) or was from a different field (Can't remember which one). Officials are human too, prone to spite, snap judgments and emotions.

I had a different complaint in a different race last year, sadly nothing really comes of it unless you are willing to create a total ****storm and keep going higher up the pecking order. I had to get into a discussion with our LA president and eventually got a sort of broad "We understand this was a problem" sort of apology but no one ever really took direct responsibility despite the fact that there was definitely someone who failed in their responsibilities.

I guess what I am saying is: Sorry, there is little you can do.

grolby

When officials announce that the course is open, you should always assume that it is because the last place rider in the race that's finishing up has started their final lap. Time is tight between races, and that's how we strike a balance between fitting races in and allowing adequate course inspection time. Course is open, provided you enter after the finish line and don't pass that last place rider. As it is, this situation can be awkward as people immediately start riding the course and you often end up with a big pack of riders playing grim reaper to the poor person who now gets to finish the race with a crowd breathing down their neck.

I don't think the official owes you the courtesy of discussing it with you. There's a lot to do at a race, and sorting out whether you actually didn't pass anyone or if you're just covering your ass by lying (which people do) is a waste of time. Penalizing a non-racer who crosses the finish line ahead of active racers is expedient and does the job. If the official is feeling nice, and takes the time to listen and grants leniency, that's their prerogative, but you aren't owed an "informed decision" on this. If you're indeed serious about being respectful to riders on course, take it to heart and don't make the same mistake again. I respect the opinion that her approach was wrong - I wasn't there. I'm not an official myself. But I like I said, I don't think you're necessarily owed the time of a potentially lengthy clarifying discussion. I'll grant that laughing and making a big joke of it isn't really appropriate.

Believe me, I'm sympathetic to this - I've found myself accidentally on-course during a race, very much against my own principles. It was mortifying, I totally deserved the tongue-lashing I got, and it was a wake-up call that if I thought this was an issue I took seriously, I should actually do the work to make sure I am never in any doubt whatsoever about whether what I'm doing is okay. It's not good enough to think "well, the course seems clear over here and I didn't spot a number on that rider over there so it's probably fine." Now I always go to the start/finish area and verify that the course is open, verbally with a finish line official, if necessary. That's what it means to take an issue seriously - to take steps to ensure you don't make a mistake. Otherwise, it's just words.

rankin116

Thank you, that's simply my point. I know I made an error. I know the consequences of that error. But there should be room for reasoning.

And I'm upset because it felt like that was possibly the best race I've put together to date, and I got an 8th place. It stings.

rankin116

Agreed, I have no intentions of escalating. I'm just venting.

I did exactly that, all morning. Directly with the official in question. I know all of what you said, this isn't my first season.

Like I said, I'm venting.

shovelhd

Hopefully venting includes learning.

hack

Henleyville ... or SoCal crits.


Also, I assume you've seen this (nothing bad, just the race finish):

globecanvas

Yes, we are well into arguing about it over in the race video thread!

Ygduf

nothing bad? that dude getting caught 15m from the line broke my heart.

hack

shoulda went harder ...

mattm

That was Rob aka "Hooptie", the only pro in the race.

He probably tried harder than anyone the whole time, initiating breaks etc, and attacking on the last lap. No team mates either, but it hasn't stopped him from winning in the past.

hack

He's 35+ ... what's he (and you) doing racing against the youth?

mattm

Clinging to our fleeting youth.

tetonrider

the other day, i had the chance to race in france (normandy). i jumped at the opportunity.

i'd received authorization from USAC (yeah, you have to ask) & the appropriate license to race while in europe; it wasn't that big a deal, but knowing what to ask for is non-trivial. figuring out the european race calendar is another thing altogether.

seven whole euros (!!) gets you closed roads and full support..

the race started at a civilized 2:15pm -- perfect for this non-morning guy -- and would last ~3h. things are a bit different here as far as race categories go. there is only ONE race, but depending on the type of race it is it might be restricted to national teams (invitation only), open to a few, open to more, or open to all. this race was open to cat 1s, 2s and 3s. it wasn't until after the fact i learned it was >80% cat 1s.

in france, to keep your cat 1 you need to get a certain number of top placings each year; it's unlike the US in that regard where you can park the license. also, the cat 1s are generally professionals (paid) or aspiring professionals. if you don't have a career or potential, you basically don't enter this stuff. a racer friend here told me the US-equivalent of the talent would be like a p12 race where 80% of the riders are from UHC. i can tell you that not a single cat 3 finished the race, and only a couple cat 2s were even scored.

they produced a program for the event (guess that is typical), which included my name as a registered rider; they also announced all the riders' names before the start. there are fans there...like super-fans who know ALL the riders. there was some curiosity about me. that didn't last long after the start.

the course was a circuit with a ~2-3' climb out of town, rollers to a descent, a gentle climb, then another ~3' climb back to town center. the 2nd climb was, apparently, the 1st KOM for this year's TdF; you could still see riders' names painted on the road -- sagan's name was at the base.

the race filtered from ~20 riders wide to 4 or 5 in the span of 20 meters. we went through a traffic circle 50m later which involved 2 turns >90* in the span of 5m. on the climb out of town the road was fairly clear (i didn't know this as i really couldn't pre-ride), but there was SO MUCH going on that it rattled me. riders were jumping on and off the sidewalk, weaving in and out. it was all safe, just frenetic. motion from all sides. i shuffled myself backwards. i can't even describe our routing at the next traffic circle. i got dropped (along with a bunch of others), then chased back on. a break started to form on lap 1; i climbed with a 2nd group, but then on our 2nd trip through town i got dropped again.

let half a wheel gap open up? someone's grabbing that spot.

it's weird: things were REALLY crazy, but i never felt unsafe. i've definitely had a 'this is sketchy/unsafe' feeling in the US; not here.

took a couple laps for me to feel more comfortable; by this time i'm riding in a small group and the race is gone. i can tell my fitness is good enough to be further up but the overall package is not. it gave me a chance to get in a hard workout and appreciate where i found myself.

regardless of what group you're in, these riders RIDE.

eventually we got lapped. the etiquette is that one can jump on the passing group and not pull (easy). what i didn't understand until after the race, is that when someone bridges to the group you're supposed to give them a hand-sling ahead of you. apparently i got yelled at a bunch; it was nice to be completely oblivious to this while it was happening.

this is the first race where i've gotten dropped from a lead group not once but twice!!

there were fans lining the course -- several deep in spots. people on the sides have notes and mark down the numbers of riders. they cross off the names of riders as they drop out, circle the numbers of riders in the break, etc.

legit people hold up traffic. we had full use of the roads (even if they were narrow!). no cars got anxious and jumped on the course.

i was a lap down but rode an extra lap just for pride.

to put it in perspective, i rode >4w/kg AP for ~3h and was dropped so hard.

it was so much fun. i know lots of folks who have come to europe to ride; it was special to jump in a race here. i plan to race more. i think it will take a few starts under my belt and become more comfortable with the flow through towns & road furniture -- stuff you need to learn before you can actually race.

i was told the winner of the race was just called up to fortuneo-vital concept (a french team invited to the TdF). he was in the same patisserie as me post-race, getting cookies. i asked him who had won -- he said it was him. haha!

i am DEFINITELY coming back for more.

they give you two sanely-sized numbers for the back pockets, and no one gives a $hit if you fold them! you've gotta return them after the fact or they WILL hate you. rules are rules.
Screen Shot 2016-09-20 at 4.24.31 PM.jpg

racing in a town more than 1,500 years old, NBD:
Screen Shot 2016-09-20 at 3.45.58 PM.jpg

the guy in white won; this gives the illusion i am actually racing:
Screen Shot 2016-09-20 at 3.46.43 PM.jpg

this is the 2nd climb:
Screen Shot 2016-09-20 at 3.47.04 PM.jpg

post-race refueling. cookies in normandy are square!
Screen Shot 2016-09-20 at 4.24.41 PM.jpg

this guy had a bad day. apparently a trip in the ambulance is free and a visit with the doctor is 23 euros (reimbursed if you are french) -- a bit different than the thousands you might pay in the states.
Screen Shot 2016-09-20 at 4.40.49 PM.jpg

grolby

Dang @tetonrider, that's awesome. What an experience!

hack

nice read @tetonrider

jsk

Thanks for the write-up @tetonrider, sounds like quite the experience.

Hermes

@tetronrider Like a lot. Especially the afternoon start.

mattm

Awesome stuff teton! Brave of you to dive in.

What type of race was this, what was it called?

caloso

That was awesome!