briandelmo

Finally got my upgrade to cat 4 so my crit races have doubled in time. I have noticed that my heartrate sky rockets between 180-200. My legs feel fine during racing but it seems like my heart rate and lungs seem to suffer the most. During training it's hard for me to get my heartrate that high unless I'm standing climbing up a hill. Is this a lack of intensity training? I do at least one sprint workout a week and a few harder tempo rides. Do I need more higher heartrate training?

Doge

Don't look during the race. As you get fitter you HR will go down. 200 is high, not alarming. How old are you?

briandelmo

I'm 31, I've always had a high heartrate in every sport I have done. 200 at the highest average is around 180 during a crit.

Heathpack 

Realize too that your HR may be high during a race in a manner which does not correlate with the effort you're expending- for example, adrenaline release or caffeine in gels. You may also be experiencing cardiac drift in which you HR rises due to the effect of dehydration. In this scenario, riding to a specific HR would mean declining power as you continue to work. I don't race crits but my first ever TT was also my highest ever sustained HR. Nerves, I guess. I remember seeing that three minutes in and wondering if I was doing it wrong. But my power was fine according to my power meter & I felt good, so I carried on. HR stayed high and it was no big deal.

mattm

+1 on don't look at your HR during the race - it will only hold you back.

Look at it after the race if anything.

As for getting it up during training; that's hard.. intervals are the answer to that, but even then I don't hit the same HR #'s I do in races.

Just race a lot.

deapee

There's a guy I know that hits 215...HR is a very individual thing. Take two olympic-caliber athletes that perform similarly in the same event. One's max HR can be 170 and one's max HR can be 215 with no discernible difference in performance whatsoever.

I can say this, there's some guys that record their crit races on youtube...and their recordings will have HR, Power, Cadence, etc on the viewer's screen...and criteriums are no joke when it comes to HR.

rubiksoval

I remember when I started racing I'd average 193-194 as an 18 and 19 year old. It felt like I was going flat out the entire race.

As mentioned, that comes down over time. It's a multi-year, thousands of miles kind of thing as your aerobic foundation is built up.

I wouldn't pay attention to it at all if you're worried. That's the thing about racing with hr or power and the like. In the end, the numbers don't matter. All that matters is whether or not you can hang on to that wheel in front of you and sprint at the end.

canuckbelle

Don't look.

Often the added stress of being a 'race' elevates heart rate and has nothing to do with fitness. Just don't look during a race. My racing HR is often 10bpm higher than training at the same power levels.

carpediemracing 

Unless you're in trouble don't worry about HR. I knew a woman who asked me at one point if holding 206 bpm was unhealthy.She was 42 at the time. I deferred to a doctor but it was okay.

For me I rarely see 160 bpm training, usually 150-155 is high. In races I'll average at times 165 to 168 bpm, hitting as high as 175 or so.

Generally speaking I record race data to review, not to look at during a race. I'll do a sanity check now and then. I learned that I generally don't look down until 10-15 min to go (up to 1.5 hour crits) because a couple times in races I only noticed toward the end of a race that my SRM was still in sleep mode.

Doge

You seem fine. 197 peak at 31 was mine. My average was higher when out-of-shape - around 180 and it would drop to 175 as i got fit.
I have HR data on me, wife and kids going back only 15 years now, but have used for 30 years. I posted some from my wife here https://www.bikeforums.net/18865801-post29.html and you can see how stable and repeatable those graphs are from month to month.

Much of my oldest data in crits before computer downloading or graphs. My newer data from running and refereeing (adults) I still have and it looks a lot like a crit. I officiated a game about age 40 on Sudefed (that brand) as I had a cold, and it bumped my ave up 15 beats. I figured that was bad.
Despite what folks say, I have found for an individual, you can get very repeatable HR results, as shown in the graphs in the link. Most know I have lots from my kid too. HR does vary based on all the things mentioned, and others, but those are often things you can learn to easily mentally adjust for. You learn to do the event with the same amount of sleep, caffeine etc., and once you reach a level it is a good indicator of effort. As it measures effort vs just power you are getting a different data point. Effort can change for the same power based on how you ride - and how you are/feel. A still valid old-school (before PMs) method is to use a stopwatch vs HR on an changing course and try to get the time down without HR going up. It is surprising how much can be done in a short time. This is still the way to do ITT training over a PM.

Wylde06

Ignore it.

I used to average ~195 in crits, its come down since I have gotten fitter/learned how to race better.

A guy who started doing our club races would get dropped a lot last year. He said he would see his heart rate hit xxx and he would back off. I told him to ignore it because it will be higher in a race. He listened to me and started doing a lot better

spectastic

i'm always at or a couple of bpm above 200 near the end of a crit

rideaz

I also don't look at HR during a race, or even a hard group ride. I remember the first time I wore a HR monitor and saw 195 during a group ride, I freaked out because I remembered the poster at the gym that said max HR is 220-age lol. I'm 42 and can easily get my HR into the high 190s, haven't had a heart attack yet!

grolby

The max HR I've recorded this year was 205 (last year it was 203) in a race where I averaged 190. That's on the high side for me, but an average HR over 180 is pretty typical for me; my LTHR is 187 or so. I do look at HR data in a race but I don't let it dictate my actions. Mostly I use it as a second check with RPE to make sure I'm keeping tabs on what I'm doing, for example if I'm trying to recover in the group I'll make sure it's actually dropping. During cross season, I can use it for some crude pacing; if I'm in the high 180's, the pace is hard but sustainable. Over 190 and I'm probably not going to be able to keep it up for a whole race. That doesn't mean I back off if I look down and see 193, it's just added information. I generall only can glance at my HR a couple times a race.

briandelmo

I guess I just need to learn to suffer more. I can hold a high heart rate it just doesn't feel too pleasant.

canuckbelle

Often what separates the winners from mid-pack racers is who can handle the discomfort better. It's supposed to hurt. If it didn't hurt, if it wasn't hard, anyone could do it.

And I'll say that each time my coach puts me back into a build phase, I have to somewhat re-learn how to hurt. You might want to try over-unders and pyramid intervals to get used to hurting. Tabata intervals are also pure suffering.

Doge

It depends.

At certain levels - all the riders can suffer. All can ride at any number. The HTFU idea is silly for them. They actually need to learn when/when not to burn matches and when they need to back off, not because they are weak, but because they are so accustomed to ignoring discomfort that sometimes they are not listening to their body as they should. Particularly a junior male problem.

briandelmo

I'm pretty impatient. This last race I attacked on the second lap. Then someone counter attacked after I was caught by basically everyone. Ended up getting boxed out by some shaky riders on the second turn and having to jam on the brakes to avoid crashing into them. Got shot out the back it was unpleasant couldn't really get back on and no one else could bridge up to me

mattm

This should be framed.

Doge

Do YOU really back off because of the pain? Maybe because you know pain early means slower performance later.
I just don't believe pain stops you.

does it?

carpediemracing 

Patience is highly underrated in crits.

The way I read your comment is the following:

"I attacked on second lap"

Everyone's a champion at the beginning of a race because everyone is fresh. Even I can go fast at the beginning of a race. However if you're in the wind and everyone else is basically following your lead (pace/etc) then you're working significantly harder than most everyone else in the field. There will be one or two riders in the wind that are working as hard as you. Everyone else is going much easier. If it was a Cat 3 race I'd suggest that there are riders at the back of the field chatting and soft pedaling while the attacks are happening up front. There's a flip side to being too relaxed but the point here is that attacking early means dealing with a peloton of fresh legs. If you're going to attack then attack when things are more in your favor - there are some more tired legs, it's a tailwind (less draft), crosswind (ditto), other people have just attacked (tired legs), uphill (no draft), etc. Work when it benefits you, save when you generally can't work for your own benefit first.

"Someone countered after I got caught"

Someone did a textbook counter attack to your attack. One of the most basic racing moves, short of clipping into your pedals at the start, is attacking when an earlier attacker/break is caught. Such a counter attack can be very effectie. You've basically eliminated the riders in the prior attack/break because they probably won't be able to respond to a fresh move. You've eliminated some riders that were chasing because they, too, won't be able to respond. You might have just eliminated 2/3 of the riders that could counter your move. And the 1/3 that are left? They're smart, they're fresh, they can go with you, and they might be strong enough to help you and your move stay away.

If you make an attack and realize that you're getting caught, absolutely expect a counter attack to go. You may not be able to go with it but you certainly will have to deal with the pack reshuffling itself as another attack mixes things up again.

"I went into a turn too hot for the conditions (riders in front of me) and had to brake hard right when it would have been good for me not to be braking"

In a situation like this you need to look up the road a bit further. Drafting is great but if you fail to see the forest for the trees you'll get sucked into a situation where you're boxed in and don't have an out. I have no idea what happened in your situation but often you'll see some riders flow right through such an incident while others are braking to a stop. It's like in rush hour when a line of cars comes to a sudden stop but one car moves over smoothly and safely and keeps going. Realistically that car left enough of a gap to see what was coming up, kept an eye out on the adjacent lane to make sure he had an out, and moved over when he read the situation in that lane as undesirable. A camera on the bike/helmet would really help clarify (to you) exactly what was happening. Memory is pretty fallible; video doesn't lie. If you use a camera I'm sure you'd be able to look back at the situation and think of possible solutions. Sometimes it's not there but often there's a best practice habit ignored/overlooked/not-known that could have helped in that situation.

"I got shelled."

You made some big efforts in attacking. It doesn't matter how hard you actually went, it's more about how hard you went relative to your own strength/fitness/ability. To recover from such a move takes time. If you make mistakes when you're recovering, when you're at your most vulnerable, you'll pay the price.

Remember that once you get shelled you actually have to be stronger to bridge. If you can't draft a field that's going 22-28 mph then you certainly won't be able to chase that field down. It may be that you'll need maybe 200w average to hold a field going 25 mph, with spikes up to 400-800w for corners or errors. If you use your "spike energy" up making an attack then you need to be extra vigilant about being energy efficient.

Once you get shelled from that field you're not only going to have to ride harder just to maintain the same speed, you're going to have to go exponentially harder to bridge the gap. Say you get shelled from that 200w sitting in speed. You might need to do 350w just to maintain the same speed. To bridge a 10 second gap efficiently you might need to maintain 600-800w for 30-45 seconds. That fact that you were unable to do 200w with 400-800w efforts doesn't bode well when now you're going to need to do 600-800w for half a minute or more.

I'm making up the above wattage numbers based on my own experience. I've sat in races averaging 27.5 mph while averaging 175w. That same race I spent about 2 miles in the wind, averaging 24 mph, and putting down about 280w in the process. I was using an additional 100w (60% more power?) and going 3 mph slower (10% slower). I've bridged 10 second gaps on my own in not-super-hard conditions and put down 600-800w for 30 seconds to do so.

mattm

Sometimes pain stops me, sure. Other times it's about doling out the suffering at the right time.

But in general if racers are afraid to go in to the red zone during a race, they probably won't do well in the long run.

It's one thing to have the legs "on fire", another when your'e just out of breath or the legs totally give out. You can only push on so long.

Doge

I agree. And as so many point out - I don't race (or haven't for 20 years). But those I watch being my groupie self may screw up in calculations, but I have not found any afraid of pain. I am. But I'm not you or those I observe. I don't think those that are afraid of pain get to the level you are at, or the level of those I watch.
There is a time you just can't go. But that does not seem to be about will, rather, inability to go faster.

briandelmo

This makes sense to me. I have my first cat 4 race Sunday. The field have about 30 more riders than cat 5 usually so my plan is to just sit in for a majority of the race.

TexMac

Congrats on your upgrade. I got mine last year winter.
I don't usually check my HR in a crit but my max has been 186 so far. When doing 4/5 my hr will start at 150 ish first part then 170/180 last part. Jumping onto 3/4 my hr will start at 160 then end 180's.
You sound like guy in our last Crit, he attacked 4 laps in and after 2 laps he was spit out in the back.
Best of luck and just learn as much as you can, and try different things till you figure it out.