grolby

Sorry to hear that, glad you're not hurt worse.

Yup.

Maybe they couldn't. You're WAY stronger than the average 3/4 rider. Lots of guys are just hanging out and even if they're comfortable sitting in the pack, don't have the ability to seriously contemplate a bridge to a solo break. Keep in mind, 20 seconds is a HUGE gap for the typical Cat 3 or 4 to bridge solo. For a lot of riders, 10 seconds is close enough that you can close it down with a big VO2 effort and then recover. Maybe for you, you've got enough power at threshold that you can chip away at a gap for a while and get across eventually, but many of us have to rely more on just going over the limit and getting into the draft in time to recover and start contributing. Once it's over about 10 seconds, you're pretty much blown by the time you've gone any further. Obviously, take "10 seconds" with a grain of salt, it could be plus or minus a few, but the general principle that most 3/4 riders will need to burn a match to get across that kind of gap holds. There might be one or two other riders in such a small field that can seriously contemplate bringing back that gap solo without blowing up - and one of them is probably already up the road.

Yup, this.

scheibo

rode my new TT bike for the first time on Saturday... only there's too few TTs. i think i need to move to the UK so I can hill climb and TT to my hearts content

yeah, hes no slouch, he was the guy who got 3rd in the 2/3s. i still think I'm stronger than him, but hes a worthy adversary. i'm not sure if their other team members could have held it, i was mainly marked by someone who was effectively their road captain and their sprinter. pulling those two up to their climber/TT rider didn't seem like a winning strategy.

grolby

I got ahead of myself.

When you get right down to it, running and bike racing are just fundamentally different sports with different dynamics. And that breeds different ways of winning and a culture that often thinks differently about what constitutes a "deserving" win. It's been said a million times before, if it was about who was strongest, we could all just do a competitive power test on trainers and dispense with the silly and dangerous "racing" nonsense. And yet, we do the race, with all the commensurate silliness and elbow rubbing and other dudes spraying sweat and saliva and other bodily fluids on you. And the drafting. That's the playing field.

Whether it's running or bike racing, one sport isn't "better" than the other because one is more of a competition to see who's strongest and one is more of a competition to see who can use their strengths most effectively. They're just different. If you prefer one to the other, likewise, there's nothing wrong with that. But keep an open mind - as you upgrade, you will get to the point where you aren't always the strongest rider, and if you want to keep winning you'll just have to find ways to do it that don't involve riding away from everyone. Or just stick to hill climbs and running if that's more fun. I happen to like bike racing, despite being way worse at it than you despite having done it for a lot longer. So obviously I think it's worth grappling with until you figure it out. But I'm not you.

Thing is, we have different talents, and bike racing gives people with racing smarts the opportunity to shine along with the watt monsters. Both of these things can be trained, but both also have a big talent component. Is winning the genetic lottery for being a smart tactical rider less honorable than winning it for aerobic ability? Is training for power more honorable than training for how to follow the right moves at the right time?

Or to use another bike sport as an example, one I'm almost good at - cyclocross. I'm way better at cyclocross because handling ability comes into play much more than it does on the road. I'm no better at pedaling hard in cross than I am on the road, but because I can go around a corner fast, I can turn fast lap times. Yes, of course I practice my handling skills, but just as with power, there's a major element of innate talent involved. I couldn't tell you how I know I can rail a grassy corner and come out the other side with more speed than the other guy, but the fact remains that I can. Like winning with a sneakily-timed attack on the road, using handling skill to get results is accepted as part of how you play the game in cross. Now, it's too bad for me that it's not such a factor on the road, but that's just the way it is. It isn't going to change, and I need to approach my game plan differently there.

miyata man

Good to see you are finally recovering from that sillily named university race, scheibo.

Ever thought about trading running for speed climbing rock faces? There is a certain delight to be found in running up something that vexes a large number of people without using your hands.

PepeM

Considering 'the strongest man' finished twelfth, I'd say the tactics of most of the people in that field were better than yours.

You should appreciate the fact that the race represented a new challenge instead of whinibg because people didn't race the way you would like them to.

grolby

Eh. Sometimes you need to vent a bit. But as someone who's lost his cool and lived to regret it many times, letting those tactics get to you and make you lose your cool is a learning opportunity.

scheibo

I mean, i've already been in plenty of races where I'm by no means the strongest rider. However, my game plan for winning those is *still* going to have to be riding away from everyone, because I'm not able to win if I bring anyone to the line. However, I need to follow the wheels of the strongest guys, make them chase all the moves and hope I get lucky and they dont see me as enough of a threat/are too tired and I get away early enough and hold it to the end. That's the script. Even reduced bunch sprints aren't going to work. I'm going to continue working on winning from a small group and improving my sprint etc, but its not something I can see improving all that much.

It's not that different from how I ran actually, at least in my chosen event. I don't have much raw speed for a miler so I'd win by making it fast from the gun or moving early (~700 to go). In longer events I just needed to hang on and kick, but that doesn't seem to work for me in bike racing. It's almost like theyre two different sports.

My main rant is *not* that I was beaten by people who were smart enough to sit on my wheels, its that no one seems to care about going for the win.

I said strongest, not best at racing bikes. I was not looking to get the best place possible, I was looking to get first. I could care less if I got 6th vs. 12th. Or 3rd even. I've gone 3-1-1-2-4 the last 5 races here, just making the podium doesn't hold any allure anymore (in this race. its definitely still something I'd care about in other races). I think this is one factor - I've already been so successful on this particular circuit that anything other than a win doesn't mean as much to me as a podium means to my competitors.

yeah, this mainly turned into a super butthurt rant. there's still plenty of takeaways and learning opportunities, as well as extra motivation for training. i'm still learning this bike racing thing after 2 decades of competitive swimming and running which is done very differently by very different types of racers.

TheKillerPenguin

There have been times where I've not cared about chasing down the winning break because I cared more about upgrade points for placing, say, 4-9th. Let other people chase and tire themselves out, then try to be the best of the rest. Just sayin', everyone's got their reasons for sitting on and picking their noses.

scheibo

yeah i'm a huge hypocrite because i definitely have definitely raced defensively/trying to maximize position, and will continue to in the future. i mean, i marked the guy in the first race and then got mad at the field for doing the same to me in the second.

ive thought about this a lot because im still struggling to find out why im so salty about that race. i think its because i have a preconceived notion of everyone's rankings in my head and where i slot into it all and i judge my race on how my position lines up with my internal thoughts about how things should be. in the first race where i placed 4th i think 3rd was possible and maybe 2nd was the best I could do barring some luck, so overall it wasnt that bad. in the second, it was my race to lose and i did, so i get extra upset about that. when i do a P123 race I usually know one or two guys in it and where I 'should' stack up relative to them, so that's usually how I judge my result. this definitely stems from a background in sports where your 'worth' as an competitor can be summed up with a list of times for the most part (as they serve as the barrier for entry to when you get to 'really' compete ie in championships where its then all about place)

globecanvas

A few years ago I did Tulsa Tough and the Crybaby Hill day had a 40+ cat 3 field, which is something that just doesn't exist at all in the northeast, and I raced it and won easily. The following year I went back to race it again totally cocky assuming I was just a better class of racer than everybody else, was in a 2-man break for a while but then we got caught. I raced around with the pack for a few more laps just totally demoralized from reality clashing with expectations and finally just quit the race -- the group was all together, I was at zero risk of getting dropped or missing a move, I had just as much chance to win as I did at the starting line, but just the fact of not riding away from everybody after assuming I was like a super-racer compared to them made me feel like a schlub and a loser.

My mental response to that day was to completely stop doing cat 3 races at all -- I think that was my last race that wasn't either P123 or open masters. Incidentally I found myself doing better (and collecting upgrade points) in P123 and open masters races, where I knew I was outgunned by the field, compared to 3 and 3/4 races where I went in feeling like it was a failure if I didn't win.

This is something I keep saying these days, but this is a hobby and it's supposed to be fun, so it makes sense to put yourself in situations that are more likely to be fun.

The upgrade calculus might be different in your area at your age though, if there are a lot of races that offer either P12 or 3-only fields. In the NE there are hardly ever P12 fields, and since I'm old there's always 40+ or 45+ too.

grolby

Maybe .

Seriously, this is an interesting example. I didn't get into it because I was already blabbing on and on, but while I don't know much about running, I do know enough to understand that tactics do play into it as well. But it's different at those speeds because it's really more about what kind of race will play to your strengths, and winning the mental game. In bike racing you have those same considerations, but with the added considerably greater benefit of drafting. It really does require some radically different thinking. Like before, when I used 'cross for an example: tactically, it's closer to running. Groups split up quickly and are typically much smaller. Drafting is still a factor, more than many people realize, but it's a much smaller effect. And in that sport, I'm a tactically really solid racer. But, nine years after my first road race, I still struggle with getting my head around it.

GC's take is good, as always. I don't think you need to apologize for being too salty or hypocritical, it's just that some of us who really love bike racing in spite of ourselves get a bit defensive about it at times! It really is frustrating when the whole group seems aligned against you, they chase you but then let this other guy go. Even when it's not personal, it feels like it is.

rubiksoval

Did Sunny King tonight. Lined up second row (after 30 mins of holding a spot in staging!). Was adamant about staying top 20 the first few laps but the way that course surges on the front and back stretch made that an extremely difficult task physically. Finally just rolled towards the back and was content to stay there and not slam on my brakes twice a lap like the people further up.

Lots of big, 15-25 people pile ups, especially in turn one. With ten to go I started moving up, but with six to go there was another huge pile up in turn one and I came swooping in and just thought I'd sprint right on by. Idiotic mistake as I was hugely gapped off the back and immediately realized my race was over. Chased for two more laps before they pulled me. Race totally blew up into three groups, so it's not like it would have made a difference anyway.

John Murphy won. He's so fast.

Doge

I watched puppy get 2nd in the Boulder/Roubaix race today in collegiate A lost by 20sec (Boulder). He just couldn't stay with number 1. Collegiate As started 2 min behind the P12s and a small group went off and finished about 2 min ahead of all but 10 of the P12s and about 10 min in front of the P12 pack.

The new 303 team took 1-4 in the P1s and Dave Toal said first time he'd ever seen that. Rally pro gets 5th before his Tour of California next week. LUX 17 junior Riley got around 15th in the P12s.

I'm not so into these +50% dirt road races, but it was a competitive field and good race.

hack

watched some of the live feed ... pretty exciting finish. bummer you got caught out there in the last crash.

mattm

Hardcore!

Looking back, do you wish you'd taken a fake free lap instead of going around the last crash? I see people doing that in big crits (some small crits too), but I try to avoid it.

rubiksoval

Yeah, absolutely. It's the only way to have continued the race.

Small crits would be pretty head-shaking behavior, in my opinion, but in that race, with UHC driving it on the front and the field already strung out for 2 blocks...

But then again, being that far back with so few laps remaining, the race was pretty much over anyway. I should have started trying to move up with 15-20 to go, but everyone thinks that and it's always tough.

dz_nuzz

Got to pull a fast one on all the big engines yesterday and got away with one other dude at the Brumble Bikes Kermesse. 60-something miles for two people, I managed to grab the win at the end, along with the most aggressive rider award (I had actually made one earlier attempt to go OTF from the gun which was brought back). ALL HAIL THE AERO EQUIPMENT!

The funny part was that almost Every. Single. One. of the "big diesel" were behind me and 3 of them were in a 5 man chase group behind me, but apparently, my teammate said they were too busy punching each other in the face to ever hunt us down.

mattm

F yeah man!!

lsberrios1 

Saw the P1 race yesterday and my hats off to all the guys in that field. I did the Cat3 race and it was hard enough. Which team were you racing for?

UmneyDurak

Turlock RR, went of pothole 35 minutes and blew out both tubulars. I was on backup bike with 10 speed, teammate had wheels in truck but they were 11 speed. Well that was the end of that race.

Before flats.
After first break was brought in I literally watch two guys look at each other, nod and precede to move on outside for next attempt. Swooped behind them and followed, but field chased us down fast. Anyway I thought it was hilarious.

tetonrider

really happy to read this--you deserve it!

congrats.

what's your goal race for the season?

aplcr0331

34 mile RR. 12 miles of gravel. Rain, wind, hail, snow, mud and misery.

Stayed with the group for 3 miles, but dropped on first hill, worked with about 4 others for a while but dropped from them too.

21st out of 25 in Cat 4/5.

octaneTom

Local C race — 30 minutes. First crit in 10 years and only 3rd crit ever.

Sat 9th wheel for 30 minutes. Didn't do a great job from hiding from wind or moving up in the group when I had some chances. Didn't notice we'd dropped a bunch guys pretty quickly. Somebody attacked last lap and there was a surge and I got gapped a bit on the 2nd curve. Limped home the last half a lap. Finished 10/19. Good learning experience, will race again.

dz_nuzz

Thanks!

I am not really sure this year. I think maybe targeting the State and Regional Road Races are a good move. I did well at the last year and would really love to take home one of those Jerseys. My coach has been trying to convince me to do Nats, I am still up in the air about that though.

grolby

I watched the live stream, that race was brutally fast, as always. Great job, bummer you got caught out in that last crash. Not sure what was up with turn 1, dudes just kept going down there. Slowest corner on course, but by far the most crashes. Maybe that's why.

Saw this on Twitter a couple days ago. Nice!