Power meter - train, race or both?
#51
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Originally Posted by asgelle
I don't see how you reach this conclusion. Even if you're reaching maximum power for all durations, that doesn't indicate that lack of power in the final sprint is a result of low NP power. As outlined above, the lack of sprint power might be the result of many things other than maximal NP.
But aside from that, how do you know the max efforts in a race are the same as in workouts without the data from a power meter? What you're saying is you don't need a power meter because you already know the what the data will turn out to be. Of course, without data to contradict you, you'll always be right.
But aside from that, how do you know the max efforts in a race are the same as in workouts without the data from a power meter? What you're saying is you don't need a power meter because you already know the what the data will turn out to be. Of course, without data to contradict you, you'll always be right.
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#52
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Originally Posted by asgelle
There is only one CP.
You're thinking of FTP.
#53
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Originally Posted by UT_Dude
5s? 1m? 5m? 1hr?
You're thinking of FTP.
You're thinking of FTP.
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Originally Posted by asgelle
I really don't think so. https://www.velo-fit.com/articles/critical-power.pdf
--Steve
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It depends on your definitions and terminology I guess. I've always heard Critical Power is the amount of power you can put out for a certain amount of time, whereas Functional Threshold Power seems to be the term i've always heard used for what you're talking about.
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Originally Posted by 2Tired2Shift
Won't a HRM tell you the same?
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Originally Posted by asgelle
There is only one CP.
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Originally Posted by asgelle
I really don't think so. https://www.velo-fit.com/articles/critical-power.pdf
The article is basically saying that you can predict (extrapolate) longer CPs (CP60, CP90, etc.) by testing only shorter CPs (CP1, CP5, etc.). That's great, but I'm not sure what it gets you...if you are measuring power all the time, you're eventually going to get that info, whether you're specifically testing for it or just gathering it from a large set of rides. Unless you just never do rides of 60 minutes or more .
Coggan and Allen define FTP specifically as "the highest power that a rider can maintain in a quasi-steady state without fatiguing for approximately one hour". I believe they are the gold standard for that term; they literally wrote the book on it.
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Originally Posted by 'nother
Did you read the article? It clearly states that there are at least 2 definitions of CP: Friel's relatively modern definition (sustatinable power for certain time periods ranging from a few seconds to 180 minutes), and Monod & Shcherrer's older "a power level that could be sustained for a very long time without fatigue.".
Coggan and Allen define FTP specifically as "the highest power that a rider can maintain in a quasi-steady state without fatiguing for approximately one hour". I believe they are the gold standard for that term; they literally wrote the book on it.
Coggan and Allen define FTP specifically as "the highest power that a rider can maintain in a quasi-steady state without fatiguing for approximately one hour". I believe they are the gold standard for that term; they literally wrote the book on it.
This is what Coggan has said about Friel's CP:
I was referring to the power zones he gives in his "bible". Apparently
he had only been using a PowerTap for a few months before he completed
the book, and didn't have sufficient experience with power measurement
to have a good feel for what people can and cannot do. Trying to work
"backwards" from HR, he came up with zones that are way, way too
high...for example, IIRC in the book he labels anything less than 80% of
"threshold" power as being recovery, when in fact you have to be riding
pretty damn hard to get your average power up that high. Indeed, as a
general rule I don't think it is possible to come up with precise power
zones or levels by working backwards from HR, simply because of
variability in HR not only within, but between, individuals.
My criticism of the "critical power paradigm". at least as he
implements it, is his use of subscripts or numbers to denote the
exercise duration, e.g., "CP12" being the maximum power you can sustain
for 12 min. The problem with this approach is that it implies that you
have multiple critical powers, when in fact you really have only one.
That is, the critical power concept is well-developed in the scientific
literature, and it has been shown that beyond the first couple of
seconds of exercise, the entire power-duration curve can be described
using just two parameter, one representing/correlating closely with
anaerobic capacity, and one representing/correlating closely with
lactate threshold. The advantage of presenting things this way, in
addition to just avoiding confusion from trying to reinvent the wheel,
is that it helps people better understand the physiology underlying
performance in various events. For example, presented the Friel way, one
might be led to believe that the factors determining performance in a
pursuit (power just above "CP6") and performance in a 40k (power just
above "CP60"...for most people) are significantly different. Presented
the established/accepted way, however, it is clear that both are largely
determined by lactate threshold, since one's "critical power" has a
significant influence on performance (power) even at the far left end of
the power-duration curve. From a training perspective, that makes it
easier for people to understand, e.g., why to ride a fast pursuit you
still need to put in significant volume*, or why even masters racers
whose events might be less than one hour can still benefit from
multi-hour training rides.
*Under Charlie Walsh, the Australian Institute of Sport pursuiters
would train up to 35,000 km/year, whereas according to a recent
interview with Bradley Wiggins on cyclingnews.com, the endurance track
riders in the British World Class Performance program (directed by Peter
Keen) would, at times, train up to 32-35 hours/week. All for an event
less than 5 min in duration!
he had only been using a PowerTap for a few months before he completed
the book, and didn't have sufficient experience with power measurement
to have a good feel for what people can and cannot do. Trying to work
"backwards" from HR, he came up with zones that are way, way too
high...for example, IIRC in the book he labels anything less than 80% of
"threshold" power as being recovery, when in fact you have to be riding
pretty damn hard to get your average power up that high. Indeed, as a
general rule I don't think it is possible to come up with precise power
zones or levels by working backwards from HR, simply because of
variability in HR not only within, but between, individuals.
My criticism of the "critical power paradigm". at least as he
implements it, is his use of subscripts or numbers to denote the
exercise duration, e.g., "CP12" being the maximum power you can sustain
for 12 min. The problem with this approach is that it implies that you
have multiple critical powers, when in fact you really have only one.
That is, the critical power concept is well-developed in the scientific
literature, and it has been shown that beyond the first couple of
seconds of exercise, the entire power-duration curve can be described
using just two parameter, one representing/correlating closely with
anaerobic capacity, and one representing/correlating closely with
lactate threshold. The advantage of presenting things this way, in
addition to just avoiding confusion from trying to reinvent the wheel,
is that it helps people better understand the physiology underlying
performance in various events. For example, presented the Friel way, one
might be led to believe that the factors determining performance in a
pursuit (power just above "CP6") and performance in a 40k (power just
above "CP60"...for most people) are significantly different. Presented
the established/accepted way, however, it is clear that both are largely
determined by lactate threshold, since one's "critical power" has a
significant influence on performance (power) even at the far left end of
the power-duration curve. From a training perspective, that makes it
easier for people to understand, e.g., why to ride a fast pursuit you
still need to put in significant volume*, or why even masters racers
whose events might be less than one hour can still benefit from
multi-hour training rides.
*Under Charlie Walsh, the Australian Institute of Sport pursuiters
would train up to 35,000 km/year, whereas according to a recent
interview with Bradley Wiggins on cyclingnews.com, the endurance track
riders in the British World Class Performance program (directed by Peter
Keen) would, at times, train up to 32-35 hours/week. All for an event
less than 5 min in duration!
#60
Senior Member
Originally Posted by Squint
Having met Coggan, Friel, and Carmichael in person, only one came across as intelligent. Guess which one.
I can also attest to his success in coaching athletes. I know of more than one rider he has coached to gold medals in international competitions (and yes, he was the coach working with them day to day).
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Originally Posted by asgelle
I, too, have met all three, and I think this is grossly unfair to Joe Friel (assuming he is not the intelligent one you refer to) . Friel is a coach not an academic or physiologist as is Coggan, and never claimed to be anything else. One of the jobs of a coach is to take complex information and put in terms an athlete can understand and practice. In that, Friel has been extremely succesful. Look at the posts on training here and elsewhere and you see the vast majority of the discussion is based on concepts first presented to the masses by Friel. It's true sometimes he isn't perfectly precise in his interpretations and he has made a few errors, but overall he has done more to popularize periodized training among cyclists than anyone else.
I can also attest to his success in coaching athletes. I know of more than one rider he has coached to gold medals in international competitions (and yes, he was the coach working with them day to day).
I can also attest to his success in coaching athletes. I know of more than one rider he has coached to gold medals in international competitions (and yes, he was the coach working with them day to day).
I have to say now that I've misunderstood Friel as well. I picked up his book, read around a bit and instead of buying it, decided I should just speed through it and take a few notes right there in the bookstore. There wasn't much there and when you see complexities painted over in a few broad strokes, it's a good indication that it's time to move on to richer reading.
His "bible" was like a recording of a concert. A great coach can rarely come through in the pages of a book. You just can't condense that magical interpersonal power. Performance is in doing, not thinking. And it takes a special talent to develop and hone an athlete's laser-like focus on doing. Smarts are over rated, especially in athletics.
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My race bike is my training bike. I do swap the front wheel out for races (removing the Elite and putting on a HED Alps), but the powertap stays on all the time.
It's been interesting seeing the data afterward. I can pinpoint where I got dropped and I check to see what was going on for several minutes prior to getting dropped. I've pin pointed that I can't handle XXX watts for more than XX minutes and when I try, I die. These are wattages that I probably wouldn't hit in training, but now I know I have to if I want to not get dropped.
About the weight penalty. I am at least 15 pounds over what I could be so an extra 0.5 pounds to the bike has little meaning to me.
It's been interesting seeing the data afterward. I can pinpoint where I got dropped and I check to see what was going on for several minutes prior to getting dropped. I've pin pointed that I can't handle XXX watts for more than XX minutes and when I try, I die. These are wattages that I probably wouldn't hit in training, but now I know I have to if I want to not get dropped.
About the weight penalty. I am at least 15 pounds over what I could be so an extra 0.5 pounds to the bike has little meaning to me.
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Originally Posted by 2Tired2Shift
That extra 250 g. in the hub has to hurt... ?
#64
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Originally Posted by ratebeer
I have to say now that I've misunderstood Friel as well. I picked up his book, read around a bit and instead of buying it, decided I should just speed through it and take a few notes right there in the bookstore. There wasn't much there and when you see complexities painted over in a few broad strokes, it's a good indication that it's time to move on to richer reading.
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i've seen other books try to explain periodization, but friel's is by far the easiest to understand. to get the most out of the book, you really need to plan out your season as he suggests and do the right exercises for each phase. i didn't know how to do this at first.
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Originally Posted by blue_nose
If Landis can win the TdF with a Powertap, I think you will be fine.
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Originally Posted by asgelle
I don't disagree that there are deeper sources than Friel, but I think when you say there wasn't much there, that you're already discounting his contribution. I don't know if you were training seriously before his book came out, but at that time the state of the art in the popular press was something along the lines of Lemond's general outline where you more or less followed the same weekly plan all year and most riders weren't even as structured as that. There was some information about periodization, but it was all pretty vague and not something a lay person could build a training program around. Friel's book was the first presentation to allow a rider to go step by step from a yearly training plan down to planned daily workouts. Now, this has become so widespread that many people take the information for granted and don't realize the impact Friel has had.
Messages to the masses can be good starting points, but they're usually generalized for popular acceptance.