carpediemracing 

OT but...

I actually got flak on those posts from what I would consider to be a pretty important cycling personality due to the "dirty laundry" nature of the posts. I rarely edit posts except to correct grammatical errors (they drive me crazy and I only edit the worst ones) but I went and edited one post the person pointed out as perhaps being harmful to the sponsors. I actually edited the comment within about 10 minutes of speaking with the person, sitting in one of the ToPA cars and furiously typing away before I got called in for other duties. I'm still debating leaving that particular post up or not but for now it's up. I do appreciate that someone appreciated the posts though so thanks.

For the record I edited one other post when someone asked me to do so. Anything else was either grammar or me taking down some things which I thought weren't appropriate anymore ("for sale" posts).

As far as the OP goes, I'd go race the 404s in the crit unless there are some major hairpin turns or some bottlenecks (like an extremely narrow turn going into a steep uphill). If you think "race pace" will drop down into the teens or lower (the race with the extremely narrow turn going into an uphill I'd almost come to a complete stop every lap, and on one lap I put a foot down), I'd use the lightest wheels I had.

cdr

OCshark

I used to race on $1200 FiR carbon rims.... don't see why you shouldn't. Just don't crash

San Rensho 

Aero wheels are of little to no advantage in a crit. In fact,they can be a liability because they catch cross winds which screw up your bike handling.

Best wheels for a crit are fat sew-ups on a non aero rim. They provide the best griop and handling in the corners, which is where criteriums are won.

To me, deep aero rims in a crit are like riding aero bars in a crit, you may get minimally less wind resistance, but you are going to be all over the place with aero bars which will make you much slower than non-aero bars.

marin1

They are race wheels, race them.

Bantam

I'm going to have to think you're wrong. All the evidence points against you. Look at CDR's post up above.

Duke of Kent

Damn, I guess the guys from HealthNet on their Reynolds DV clinchers must be doing it all wrong then.

Sorry, but if you're actually a capable bike handler, you'll be fine with a 50mm set of wheels. I live in IL, which is a pretty windy state, and very rarely do I have trouble with crosswinds. Never had a problem in a crit.

Also, if you're actually racing your bike, at some point you'll find yourself at, or, preferably, OFF the front of the race. Those of us who actually sack up and attempt such feats prefer any advantage we can get, which means that we're likely to take the carbon tubulars.

Chucklehead

You are such a badass.

umd

+1. Deeper wheels are not difficult to control in a crit and make a huge difference if you are on or near the front, or moving up the side of the pack. The aero benefit you get at high crit speeds is immense. Cue, "it's all about the engine" replies... yes, but why do more work then you have to?

Edit: my engine still sucks, but my moderately deep (46mm) wheels helps me be more effective pack fodder.

FatguyRacer

From my persepctive as a first year moto ref and a life long racer, you are correct. Crashes happen in everything. The worst crash of the year so far involved a mas50+ guy on Zipps in an technical 8 corner downtown crit. He was the exception rather than the rule. No matter type of racing it is, a crash is bound to happen. I've crashed in a couple of crits, a circuit race or two and even a TT. Oddly enough, never a road race, but i've been caught behind them! All my most serious ER room visit crashes have happened on training rides. Go figure.

The last crit I worked was a crash fest for every race Catagory except the Women Cat4. Everyone got up an walked away. Some bikes and wheels were not so lucky.

Crashing and replacing broken stuff is part of racing. Would you spend all your hard earned money on a race car and keep it parked on the trailer, worrying about wrecking it, or would it be on the track getting whipped like a rented mule?

umd

Oh crap, me too. Oh well.

San Rensho 

Beg to differ. Just not having a water bottle on your bike gives you about 60% of the aero advantage of deep aero wheels, so if you can tell me that you can tell the diffference between running a crit with and without a water bottle, then I'll believe you that aero wheels make a difference.

San Rensho 

If you are winning crits by going off the front and soloing to the win, you don't need Zipps, you need a pro contract.

merlinextraligh

^^I digress, but running no water bottles is actually less aero, than runnning just one, but better than rnning two.

merlinextraligh

He might be one of the few people on here for whom that is a possibility.

BananaTugger

Water bottle on the seattube is the way to go.

San Rensho 

Ok, I'll bite. So you can tell the difference in aero, from feel or from results, in having one bottle on the bike instead of two?

BananaTugger

CSC and Cervelo have tested the pants off of this one.

Water bottle on the seattube creates a much more aerodynamic shape than placing the water bottle on the downtube.

Bottle on downtube: -o = Wedge shape that detaches the air. Results in a bunch of dirty air that the rear wheel has to go through.

Bottle on seattube: o- = More airfoil-ish shape. Gives the air something to grab onto once it makes it past the bottle because it sort of reattaches to the seattube.

umd

I can tell the difference with and without my aero wheels, just from how easily (or I should say, for how long) I can keep up with the really fast guys in a training crit. Having the wheels makes a huge difference. As for the water bottle, I usually do crits without them if I can get them to my wife before the start.

marin1

I get more thirsty without a bottle than I do with one.

marin1

Just race the wheels, why does every thread have to turn into a scientific study.

It was a simple question, it only requires a simple answer.

Anyone on these forums could make it to cat 2 with proper amount of training, put as much energy into riding as you do researching minimal gains and you will make it gauranteed.

It's like asking about diet foods, all the fat people know the answers.

brians647

HA! Speak for yourself!

San Rensho 

Best comment I've heard in a long time.

damocles1

So you're saying that a set of 50mm deep aero wheels with aero spokes don't give you any advantage over a set of Mavic Reflex hoops with Corsa tubs? You, my friend, need to share whatever it is you are smoking...
Everyone that can afford it, from pro level down to Fred, is riding and racing deep carbon wheels. You know why? They weigh the same or less than your vaunted tubs, they are far stiffer and far more aero.
And the waterbottle analogy is moot in this day and age. Hell, the DT on my Ridley is almost as big as a waterbottle.
I've never felt the inkling of a crosswind on my 50mm wheels and believe me when I tell you, throwing them into a corner @ 30+ isn't a big concern.
I'd call you a luddite, but you'd probably thank me...

simplyred

Yes.

Aero is good. Power is king. Tactics are ace.
Now go back to training - don't dissapoint the wheels.
They are holding up their end of the bargain and will always deliver - you should too.

Think of the long term - if push comes to shove and they snap like a tortilla - will you buy another pair of Zipps? Only you know that answer.

daytonian

If you get an advantage use them. That being said, I see lots of deep dishers that can't get off the front to save their life in crits and RR's. They're there to help you win. Don't be the guy that sits in and sprints for 15th with Zipps.