HMF

How often do you all have to zero your PT torque during your ride? Would you say "a lot"? And also, when you do have to zero it, how high was it reading? like 14 in-lbs when standing still? that's pretty common for me, I was just wondering what others had to deal with.

valygrl

OK, I'm sure this has been answered, but I can't find it.

The cliff notes version is: if you do the Hunter/Coggan test indoors on a trainer, do you still take 95% as your estimated FTP or do you take 100% b/c you tested indoors?

The long version:

I've had my powertap since May. In August I finally succeeded in doing a Hunter/Coggan 20 minute test on a steady hill climb. (Couple of failed attempts before then.) I was mid/late season, and while not training in any organized way I had a high CTL (120's) and was "in shape" but not super fresh. My 20 minute average was 163. (ok, stop laughing now, I'm female, 46 y/o, and weigh 112#). I think I might have made a mental error, which was when I did the test I had a kind of guesstimate in mind from an actual blood LT test the summer before (170 was my number the prior year, but I was currently in worse shape) - and basically as I did my test, I hit my guesstimate spot on - so maybe I tested a little lower than I could have.

So for the rest of the season I used 163 * 95%=154 as my FTP estimate to set my training zones. (which I, uh, didn't really train with that rigorously with, but I did some LT intervals, and they felt like the number I was using was maybe a little too easy).

Fast forward to January, I'm finally about to start a structured training plan (for my very first race season), and I need to retest. I've been sort-of training with a friend (riding along on her training rides, we are very similar), but not in a very organized way, and have had the usual steep decline in winter riding & climbing volume , CTL is 66 (yeah, still based on that test in August, I know, I know, I need to test more often).

I did the same test protocol, but inside on my trainer. I'm expecting a lower number than last time. I got a higher one. 171 average for 20 minutes. This time, though, I kept the power readout off my screen while I was doing the test, and focused on working as hard as I could stand, targeting my HR to never drop below my HRLT (which I'm pretty confident about), and focusing on trying to keep the speed reading up during the second half of the test to where it was when I started out, which was really hard but almost do-able).

Ok, so, now the question:

There's lots of talk about not being able to produce as much power indoors as out. I've seen 5% less, 7-10% less, etc.
So, should I use the 171 & 95% = 162 as my FTP estimate to set my training zones, just as if the test was performed outside, or should I use the straight 171 number without the 95% reduction, to account for the indoor test?

I know the actual number of watts different might seem really small/trivial, but the two numbers feel really different, and if you buy into the "power as perfect training zone selection to train the desired energy system" thing (whichI guess all of us here have to a certain extent, since we spent money on power meters), then those few watts do matter, especially as a % of total wattage since the total is so small.

Or should I just do a few weeks of training using the 171 number, and if I can complete my workouts then that's the number to use?

What do you-all think?

shovelhd

During the ride? Only if the bike was inside in a 60 degree basement and I'm riding outside in single digits or teens. I'll zero it after the warmup. In the grand scheme of things, if you're not testing, who cares if your powermeter is off by a few watts?

shovelhd

I don't change my FTP to account for indoors. By RPE, it's harder than a similar effort outside, so that's only a good thing when it comes to racing. I don't care about absolute numbers, I don't care about ewang. All I care about is race performance, and if I'm training to a "higher" standard, that only helps.

HMF

I don't know the exact math, but when it goes off by 14 in-lbs and I'm pedaling at 95 rpm, it reads something like 40 watts higher.

Smallguy

I did a bit of goggling but could not find an answer

any tips on pacing your 5 minute power tests?

last night I was able to average 357 for 3 minute hard all out efforts but this was after I had just completed 3 X 15 between 250-260 watts (my threshold is 260)

so I might/should be able to get more watts out

my last 5 minute test was 293 watts....but it was poorly paced.

so my question is how would you pace the test? I was thinking of starting in the first 2 minutes at 315 watts and if I still have more in the tank going for 330 watts but I'm not sure.

notwist

I'm interested in this as well. I am new to training with power and have not done any strucured Z5 workouts yet either.

When I did the 5 min all-out effort during a FTP test, I basically jumped as hard as I could at the beginning. Looking at the ride plot - the effort was not steady at all with power all over the chart. I suppose a higher (and more repeatable) 5 min power would be achievable by keeping/building it at a gradual rate.

echappist

start at 120% of FTP and aim for a higher number if you are feeling good.

that said, i got a nice lil surprise for my last 5' test as my FTP is now ~85% (5' = 117% FTP) of my 5'. This ratio used to be around 78% (5' = 130% FTP). I started my last test by going at 125% of FTP and the power from minutes 2-5.

waterrockets 

This is about how I pace myself for a 5' test. Maybe more like 9-10W/kg for my start (obviously, this will vary with CP5 ability).

I look to the track guys for 5' and 1' pacing, because they can get the most out of their bodies consistently. There's a bit of a variable between speed and power with respect to pacing, but I think the pacing for maximum speed on a flat course comes out pretty close to what you want for maximum power on any course.

climber7

question for all of you guys who use coggan and allen's performance manager or something similar. i'm reading the book right now so i'm still figuring this stuff out. anyway, i've done a 20 minute test on a cycleops trainer before, but i recently got a powertap and i did my first FTP test with the coggan/allen protocol on my bike outdoors yesterday. it actually went pretty well, which surprised me because i just took a bunch of time off in november and december for a knee injury and my CTL was a measly 25.6 as of yesterday (according to GoldenCheetah).

anyway, my question: if you keep track of this stuff, what was your CTL when you tested and hit your current FTP number? just curious.

echappist

it won't apply to your situation. Just collect enough data for 2 months, and then the number will actually mean something. CTL decays as exp(-1/42), so it'll take a long for the TSS of a particular workout to lose significance.

climber7

which won't - the FTP or the CTL?

i understand CTL is a long-term thing, but the reason it's low is that i wasn't training much for most of november and december. it's still significant; it just means i'm out of shape. i understand the numbers will change a lot as i get back into shape. anyway, i was just curious...i wasn't really attempting to analyze my own numbers.

grwoolf

Does anyone know when Garmin is planning to add Normalized Power, TSS, and IF to the Edge 500?

I see they had a firmware update in October adding these fields for the Edge 800, but nothing for the 500 yet. When Garmin announced the new red/black color in August, they stated that the 500 had these fields, but that's clearly not the case.

I called Garmin support and the guy didn't have a clue, just said they should be coming at some point. Does anyone have any intel on the timing?

echappist

ctl. unless if you are willing to go back 10 weeks and assign a TSS to every ride

climber7

according to this, it should happen in the second week of february. seems like the date is pretty firm, but who knows.

echappist - yeah, i understand...my point is that i wasn't really training from early november until mid/late december, so there aren't any rides to which i could assign TSS numbers. it's not that the numbers aren't in there, it's that the training isn't there. so my current CTL is probably pretty accurate.

Smallguy

thanks so my starting at 315 wasn't too crazy..lol

Smallguy

sorry I don't quite understand... are you saying you start out at 9-10w/kg and hold it as long as you can and let your power drop off as you blow up?

or am I out in left field

waterrockets 

No, that is for ~30 seconds, then smooth taper back to just above my predicted average. Then I let it fade from there, dip below average, and maybe come back for a surge in the final minute. This is paced, with no blowing up until the last 15 seconds.

Fat Boy

No, he does a 5 minute test at 9-10 w/kg.










Just F'n with ya.

climber7

you mean you don't?

shovelhd

Mine goes to 11.

Jsiegs

New to the forum/thread, so sorry if this has been discussed. What's you preferred testing protocol and why? Do you differentiate CP and FTP (technically different definitions, but come out similar enough that the terms seem to be used interchangably)?

I've been using a 20 min test and a 3 or 5 min test (well rested on different days) to calculate CP (Monod method I believe). The resultant curve should also predict my FTP (or hour power) which isn't necessarily the same as CP (your body's physiological threshold). I've read and liked Dr. Skiba's books on training with power (though he is geared towards triathletes, the fundamental concepts should carry over) and that's where I got my approach to training with power.

kensuf

The seven deadly sins need to be remembered when it comes to "estimating" threshold:

https://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/...adly-sins.html

The only really 100% reliable method is going out and doing the hour. But that digs you in a deep deep hole.

My preferred method is doing a 20' field test, and then estimating based on that (~95%). If nothing else, it gets me in the ball park for training purposes and allows me to track changes (either up or down) over time. But those things hurt, and I find I need to be fairly well rested / motivated to go and do it on my own. However, I'll also admit that every now and then I get a bit lazy and will bump the numbers around based on how previous/recent interval sets have gone rather than doing a 20' test every block.

BTW -- The easiest way to really do a monthly "20' test" is find (or run!) a 15k TT series near by. The spirit of competition sometimes helps you push harder than you could on your own, and a 15k TT should take you between 19:30 and 25', which is probably close enough. I've been running a local 15k TT series for the last two years just so I can motivate myself to go out and do those things..

Twice a season, or so, I also go test other metrics (1', 5') just to see where they are. Those also hurt, but not as much.

waterrockets 

If you can go back in this thread, you will see discussions on the testing subject. To keep it brief: I use either MAP tests or all-out 3-minute tests for testing my fitness. An FTP number comes out of those, but I'm really just interested in keeping my my training zones up to date. After doing training with power for 4 or 5 years now, I can set my zones just based on feel.

CP vs. FTP doesn't matter. Just as long as you are consistent in your protocol, can set your zones, and can decide on pacing for various efforts.

teetopkram

I know this has been answered already, but whenever it comes out, just be prepared for the programmers to inadvertently introduce about 4-5 new bugs into the update.