Ygduf

My response to intervals at XYZ power is more predictable than my response to intervals at ABC heart rate.

Some days if I see 170HR I am dying. Some days it's 180. But if I find myself above (just e.g.) 400w for 10 minutes I know I am in the danger zone and have nothing left were an attack to come.

This is why I prefer power to HR.

That said, at EC for those long climbs at altitude I used HR. Not so much the number, but the delta in the number to know if I was increasing/decreasing effort. Power for me in that circumstance is less knowable, so I used HR.

Gramercy

One example that happened to me a few weeks ago - a car turned in front of me and startled me for just a few seconds. My heart rate jumped from 140 to over 170 and it took a few minutes to go back down. This happens in a race, the adrenaline will keep your heart at an inflated rate, even if you are soft pedaling in a pack.

Doge

@Ygduf - I saw your Palomar Strava I was going to ask you that - but you answered it. FWIW - kid uses HR for that climb too - and he has power (now), but just doesn't watch it.
Racing - nothing is looked at. Its all recording.

Doge

But that is real. A startled 170 is 170. You may not have the LA built up in you legs, but you are also not normal.

gsteinb

Your basic premise is heart rate instead of power? But that's not a real world need, since we can all use both. I'm not sure I get it…is your point to try and find justification for something a 16 year old decided?

JohnKScott

You must have missed the part where he talked about athletes going out too hard on structured intervals and making their training more efficient by using power rather than heart rate. Much like my experience that I shared above.
Of course it's a recording device. Just like a heart rate monitor is a recording device. It's what you do with the data, either in real time or after the fact that makes it a valuable tool and may (or may not) lead one to change training habits.

I get what you are saying. Except it has been my experience that in an hour long TT effort my FTP power nearly always gets my heart rate up to my LTHR within a few beats per minute. There have been exceptions. For example if it is hotter and my HR goes over a bit. Sometimes it can go over a little and I can maintain my FTP effort. Sometimes it goes over more than a little and I need to back off. Sometimes (actually most times) in a race my heart rate is abnormally high compared to training levels compared to the power output. Adrenalin, excitement...but I can still do well putting out the power. The key is, my heart rate varies from standard more than power does. To me power is a more reliable training tool.

Listen. To each his own. If you and your son don't want to use a power meter...don't. But it would seem to me you are being a bit thick not to see the benefits that could be had from it. I think that at least a few people have given you instances where using power had changed their training (including in the article by Joe Friel). Take the experiences offered and learn from them. Or don't. Use the advantages of this tool...or don't. I think when something has been fairly well laid out and it's still not being absorbed it's time to stop laying it out. No offense intended but I'd say this has been asked and answered and you are just not accepting the answer.

Not saying your son can't be an awesome racer without a power meter. He's already way more awesome than I am. But I am saying that at some point he may not reach his full potential (if that's even what he wants to do) not using the best tools available. Or he may...if he gets really lucky and has a really really good coach.

Doge

Good points for the TT. I can see esp at a TT start where nervous energy can bring the HR up, using power might be a better way to start. Frankly we don't have the power numbers to work from now, while we do have HR, so that would take a lot of work - and more equipment. We could get those numbers in training, but current riding is Zone 2 based. I'll ask the coach. During the TT - I'm not so convinced HR is bad. There is a very important TT in the desert in Feb. HR is higher in the dry heat. I also believe power is lower. We have multi-year HR numbers on that course, but no power numbers. I can guess those from group rides where there is power, but I don't know if that was best the rider could do, or all it took to stay with the group. I have a PT now for training. I was looking for something I could hopefully reuse (that was not pedal based) and then the comment about not wanting or using power came.

hack

HR isn't bad and it works for your training style (group rides, TT work, and some recovery rides). Power isn't bad and it works for others' training (intervals targeting power values).

Doge

Power is not predictable in a developing - especially growing rider.

Besides a significant cost and issue with existing equipment and sponsors - its complicated. I'm trying to figure it out. Right now (Sept-Nov) there is no long term high zone riding. I can't get the numbers. And I don't think Nov numbers will apply in Feb. As the kid is growing and changing and lifting a lot - I can't use last year's training numbers. Everything is moving including equipment and sponsors. So I'm not as resistant (thick) as I am simply wondering what to do with rider that has not stabilized power. HR does not change that much. I can't say go hold 300W because he did last year. FWIW Roy Knickman (team director/dad - look him up) has the same issue with his kid. We talk about the new improved power his kid puts out and how to use it and it keeps changing for him too. So while most here are fairly steady state - that is not true for developing racers. I expect even those that start racing in their 20s. Power is completely changing - and that's a good thing - but it is not so useful.

gsteinb

So, yeah, I can get on board with too much money, a lot of effort, time, learning…we think we can get by on HR based on those considerations. Cost to worth ratio with what your goals are is a consideration for most folks no matter the level. But there's no much argument that accurate power data is straight up better than HR alone.

Doge

I am not arguing that. I agree.

My post:
I assume a new rider going from Cat 5-> would experience similar issues with power data. Its not fixed. HR almost is. For the 6th year doing TTs we pretty much use the same HR formula. If his power didn't change, then it would be easy to say what to do.

The issues with data are...
-This time of the year there is no long term steady state data collection - most riding is Zone 2 or group rides.
-It changes monthly. If the Nov TT (there is one - a hilly one with lots of coasting) shows 300W, what do I say for a flat TT in Feb?

Here is my power data. What do I do with that? I mean its a good problem, but for a developing (changing) cyclist it introduces issues beyond the economic ones.

gsteinb

I can't for the life of me understand how you have this so turned around backwards. The answer lays in regular testing. Test. Change your zones. Rinse and Repeat.

caloso

**********?

I hate testing. I will do everything I can to avoid it, but even I know you have to test regularly.

Grumpy McTrumpy

I tape over my garmin for time trials. This way I can race by RPE which is the best way for me lately. Normally it's not necessary to tape over it for RRs because I tend not to look at it anyway.

Having calibrated my RPE to correspond with certain levels of exertion has been very helpful. This also helps to avoid mental "hexing" associated with being too attached to the numbers, and then ending up not going as hard as I could.

Why don't I just sell the powermeter? Because it's helpful for post-event analysis. Additionally, I still look at it during interval sessions.

If your son is having a negative reaction to riding with power data, I feel the first course of action is to establish the "why" of this reaction. If, as I suspect, it has to do with mental hexing, then it's easy enough to just use tape. This way you can ride on feel, and then look at the data later.

I have, more recently, actually advised new riders to not buy powermeters, simply because of this hexing issue, as well as the need for a new rider to focus on learning how to ride. That's a lot more than just staying upright or pedaling circles or not crashing out the peloton.

hack

You're ( @Doge ) paying a coach $$$. Have you asked "what about this power meter and data it kicks out...can we or should we do anything with that?"?

Doge

It is not practical to retest as often as it would take. The testing takes time from training. If we are doing zone 2 now, lifting weights now - testing is not accurate. Testing power level needed for a TT - like a VO2 test - it needs to be done like a race.

As a more extreme example to fuel those that already think I'm wacked - here is data from my then 80lb from a Level 1 Cycling coach (CyberCoach - use him) feedback 4.5 years ago. The data is obviously useless. But so is last month's. Yet his HR before then was just a bit lower than it is now / OR he could use his 10 year old HR for his U17 TT.

gsteinb

mattm

You only have to test every 4 weeks, it's not that much.

And yes that data is useless, but not sure what that has to do with anything..

Ygduf

Palomar isn't at elevation. I worked with power there. Aimed for 400 and held on.

revchuck 

The data from last month will be accurate enough to train with, and more accurate than HR. X watts will always be the same percentage of his FTP. The power one can put out at a given HR varies far more due to factors like fatigue, hydration status, and health than any changes in his strength. If he's tired one day and doesn't put out the same level of power at a given HR, the training he does will be less effective. This matters less at zone 2 since both the HR and power ranges are so wide, but it's still there.

IME, during a longer TT my HR will rise even though my power remains steady. This is a pretty well known occurrence.

beatlebee 

Riding with power allows better training efficiency. It has helped me immensely. For instance, I realized that I need to do "less" rather than more to improve.

Enthalpic

It just as easy to say that if the athlete is fatigued, dehydrated or sick then doing zone training based off a % of "fresh and peaked FTP" is foolish.

If the tired athlete can't do anything close to an hour at "FTP" then the FTP based zones are wrong.

globecanvas

What is this an example of?


I haven't seen this version of the e-wang chart, with individual profiles colored in. What it tells me is something I already know -- "this chart is not useful." The cat 4 master has way better numbers than the 30+ multiple national champ.


Also, I strongly disagree that power is useless for a "developing athlete." Everybody's power changes throughout the season. You don't need to re-test all the time to recognize that. I have a 12 minute hill I climb a few times a week, at least, and I can set my FTP from my power on that climb, no problem. I don't even do math necessarily, I just know that a PR of 10 watts on the climb is equivalent to an FTP increase of 7 or 8 watts, etc.

shovelhd

So the kid is in his strength and adaptation period. He is in the gym and doing unstructured group rides. Ok. Not my favorite way of doing things but there are those that train this way. Power is basically just being recorded because he is not doing a thing with it. It is not altering his training whatsoever, unless his coach is giving him specific instructions on what to do in the group rides based on what he sees from the power data. We have no evidence of this.

Fatigue is being tracked by HR. Ok, but long term trends based on HR are just not accurate. They are fine for validating that your kid is tired but there are so many other factors that affect HR that I would not consider it reliable. So how are you tracking TSB and CTL during this period? One of the most valuable things about training with power is preventing overtrainng.

How is is he going to train during build? Is he going to continue the group ride thing or is he going to do intervals? If he is going to do intervals, how is he going to measure effort?

Again, I think either you are a poor communicator, or someone on your kids team has a severe lack of knowledge on how to train and race with power.

gsteinb

You don't get it…he posted a picture of his kid smiling, so clearly he knows what he's talking about.