merlinextraligh

Which is Exhibit A for the theory that EPO changed the dynamic of sitting/standing more toward standing, given a super charged aerobic system.

Speculation on Exhibit B would derail the thread.

CmJc

No I wasn't joking, it was what I read at velonews.com after they reported the Ricco positive in the last TdF.

The line was, he copied Pantani both in his riding style and bad habits; then they gave the "example" of Pantani sitting to climb" etc. Apologies if it is incorrect.

CmJc

Thank you for your comprehensive reply. Best one so far!

Right. Last race I was sitting, crawling up a 10% section on my biggest back cog, but when I stood I found it was way too low, resulting in very jerky, jack-hammer type pedalling. When I changed to the next highest back cog it was still too jerky, but I ended up smooth on the third higher back cog; which, as you suggest made me faster too. I was able to stand for the whole 10% section.

When I finally sat at the top I could pedal well (because those muscles were rested). Normally I sit the whole way up, and am exhausted at the top. So now, for me on this slope, it is change up 3 cogs when I stand.

Understood: Stand smoothly, not precipitously. I look forward to the day when somebody is so slow they sit on my wheel. But a good safety point to make.

Now this +is+ a useful tip. I was trying to keep everything upright, my back and the frame.

My Asian roadie mate also said to PULL with the opposite HAND to the down pedal stroke, which would rock the bike, and add some downforce.

I rarely stand, so I'm going to try standing much more, now I've found it's better. I'll stand 10 revs, sit 10 revs, to begin with, even on mild 7% slopes, and watch my PBT tumble.

I hadn't noticed this at all, too busy chewing air.

CmJc

Standing +speed+: Yes, and the rest of us too, I suspect.

CmJc

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my assumption is that you positioned your CofG better over the crank than you normally do, so more of your weight was used on the downstroke. You found a more efficient stance.

If you changed to a higher gear too, you'd go faster-still for the same effort. That way you may not perceive any extra "price" because it's your mass doing more work, not your muscles.

CmJc

Thank you, I'll pay more attention to my heart-beat rate next time; my quadriceps never have any trouble getting my attention on steep climbs.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned +the gradient itself+ as a deciding factor.

umd

Incorrect

Grumpy McTrumpy

Tre Cime de Lavaredo (from the video that I posted) was quoted as having 1:6 gradient in the tough sections. That is 16%. Still a lot of sitting. There are further videos from that era which show Merckx et al climbing 1:4 (!!) grades while seated.

BobLoblaw

Re: pre-drug days. When was that? Riders have always taken drugs. The sport may be cleaner now that it's been since the first guys on high-wheelers said "Race you to the Watkins barn and back!"

Sitting or standing has a lot to do with personal preference and muscle type, not to mention pedal stroke and maybe age. Armstrong, Pantani, Contador, and Santiago Botero are (were) all great climbers who spend a lot of time out of the saddle. Merckx and others never stood.

I prefer to stand, always have. Other guys will spin a 39 x 23 while I'm mashing a 39 x 17. If I try to sit and spin a lighter gear, my pedal stroke becomes choppy and my legs bog down and I go out the back.

At 185 lbs, I'm not the world's greatest climber by any means, but standing works much better for me than sitting, even on climbs of over a mile.

BL

Grumpy McTrumpy

funny thing about Armstrong: I always picture him as best when climbing sitting down. I know he does stand fairly often, but he seems to be fastest when he is sitting and spinning a low gear at a (for me too fast for climbing) high RPM.

Grumpy McTrumpy

Armstrong on Hautacam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6DmNMGEuI0

CmJc

I'm on dial-up in Asia so I already prepared this reply to your previous post of the climb...

Thank you for the link.

It's the Tre Cime di Lavaredo (pron: "Tray Cheemay") climb in the 1974 Giro, 2,400 metres high.

I don't know which is more intimidating; the daunting mountain climb, or the delightfully berserk Italian crowd. Notice the harassed police out-riders; slipping, sliding, and dodging fallen Tifosi.

And +that+ with a Spaniard leading the stage, hunting down a Flem in the Maglia Rosa!

At one point the commentator says: " the gradient is 1 in 6, the temperature is minus 2 centigrade".

Now let's see; 1 in 10 is 10%, so 1 in 6 is... gulp... 17% gradient.

I notice Msr. Merckx does stand when he rounds a ramp (at 5:09 in the clip), but as you say, mostly remains seated.

CmJc

Good comment. I'm trying to guess which back cog to use +before+ I stand, usually more than one higher.

Then in situations when +already standing+, at say 7% gradient, and you see a 10% section ahead, selecting a higher gear gives audible grief to the drivechain... and if the chain skips you'll have to catch yourself.

So might be best to sit again to change cogs, then stand after the scrunching subsides?

CmJc

Interesting, have you tried alternating sitting (to grind), and standing (to grind too)?
It's possible alternately resting muscle sets may improve your overall performance.
Clearly I've been stuck in the rut of sitting too much, and have only now found the improvement, so it's something to work on.

fatallightning

Does anyone give a little calf point/lift when they stand? I noticed Sastre doing this at the Giro, a little pop at the bottom of the stroke. I tried it for the hell of it, seemed to give a little more juice at a lactic cost.

CmJc

Astonishing, with or without augmentation.

He's attacking on the climb so his stance is different from ours grinding up.

His CofG is very far forward, well in front of the crank, head right over the +front wheel+, and he's spinning whilst standing, hands on the hoods. Still remarkably smooth in his action, rocking the frame between his knees.

In contrast the opposition, when they stand briefly +to defend+, have their CofG further back, head over the +bars+, and a higher gear.

It'd be interesting to compare with Snr. Sastre's technique on l'Alpe d'Huez last year.

Aside:
Refreshing to see the simplicity of the kit, even so recently: No crash-hats, just a few cycling caps, no radio, sunglasses on top, and a pillion with a wet blackboard for communication.

botto 

brings back memories of walking through bilbao in the rain, and stepping into a taberna to see the coverage.

CmJc

I'm learning to improve my standing with the tips here.

I use a compact 50/34 front, with 12-28 cassette, and 34/28 is still hard yakha up a 10% gradient. In the tropics remember, 35-40 centigrade.

Since discovering I'm +supposed to+ rock the bike whilst standing (previously I was holding it upright) I found better fluency by using my feet to time the rock.

At first I was using my hands to initiate the rock, and it felt, and looked, clumsy compared to the Pros.

Now, instead of waggling the bars to make the frame rock, I allow the bike to tilt as each foot begins the downstoke, and just use my hands to +limit+ the rock. It feels more natural that way, but I'm still not smooth.