ridethecliche

There are two ways to think about this.

When you do your 20 min intervals above FTP, you end up creating a lot of fatigue for not that much additional gain in the long term. That's because you can't do the workout multiple times a week without burnout.

So, you want to increase your FTP without burning out, but how?

Do your 2x20's or 3x20's at about 90-95% of FTP. You push up your FTP, as opposed to pulling it up, and you can spend more time a week doing this without reaching the burnout zone. This is SST: much less fatigue for a good amount of training intensity.

Here's a link:https://www.fascatcoaching.com/sweetspottraining.html
You'd be amazed at how much time a break can put on a field if it picks the right line through the corners.

Also, as a sprinter, I can tell you that the races where someone went to the front in the last few laps and hammered their legs off were the races where I had the hardest time finishing well. If I'm close to my FTP or over my ftp for the last 5-10 mins of a race, my max power drops a TON. If I can sit in a draft and recover for a few pedal strokes every now and then, I can hit my good race numbers.

Use that to your advantage. Remember that most sprinters can't reel in a break or bridge up to it without doing tremendous damage to their sprinting power. If you give us any time to recover, then our legs will be right back.

mollusk

That's why I will do only one "above FTP/less than one hour intervals" workout per week, but multiple "less than FTP but greater than one hour" workouts. This way I get lots of "push" and one hard "pull" and avoid burnout. And for me that one above FTP workout does a lot of good.

jwible

4X5' At 105% of new FTP. More of this. Less JRA.

ridethecliche

Right, but you might be getting more gain doing 3x20 at 90-95% 3x a week. I'm just saying. You know how you react to training stress MUCH better than I ever could, because you've been doing this longer than I've been alive.

That being said, read the article. Z's intervals are SST due to the duration. Higher intensity, but much shorter duration. So your body feels the higher effort, but it doesn't do as much 'damage' and you recover by the next day's workout.

badhat

hey when you guys go out for an hour spin with the wife/husband/SO, keep it in the small ring and just chat, do you log it as training/recovery hours? i didnt even take my computer.

jonestr

I dont know how to fully answer this question, but I would add that there is a level of uncertainty associated with your FTP at any given time. How large is this uncertainty? At least 1.5% of your FTP under the best possible conditions i.e. error inherent to the best PMs and being "fresh", as you pile on fatigue, ambient conditions change, or you have other factors contributing to PM error, like temperature flucuations or poor zeroing which add to the 1.5% uncertainty and make being a few % away from what you think your FTP is fairly meaningless, in other words, if I can only hit 95% of what I think my FTP during my FTP intervals I still find that acceptable given the inherent uncertainties surrounding FTP.

FWIW I try and do one long FTP session, ~40min, as hard as I can rather than breaking it into chunks where I really have to think about metering my early intervals.

mollusk

I've read about Z's intervals and adapted them to my style. I do them quite a bit over FTP by perceived effort. I don't have a power meter, but I know that I couldn't put out anywhere near that power for one hour. I'm counting down the seconds at the end of each 5 minute intervals! I'd just say that the speeds I go on my road bike doing Z's intervals are close to what I do on my TT rig doing 15 to 20 minute intervals.

On the flip side I get a lot of benefit from SST rides in the 1.5 to 2 hour duration as well.

Maybe it is just me, but riding short of FTP for less than one hour just leads to stagnation at worst and only incremental improvement as best. I look at it like weightlifting: Either you do a lot of reps at lower weight or you do a few reps at high weight.

tspek

How do you quantify that though?

palesaint

Spring has arrived, finally. Rode straight out of the garage for the first time since December (snowpacked driveway/street for almost 3 straight months!). 60 miles, 5000 feet climbing. Kept the intensity a little lower in the first half, which gave me a much better second half. Seems the winter training has paid off.

Easy ride Wendesday, and a basic tempo ride on Thursday is all I've got until my first road race of the year on Saturday. Hopefully I can excersize discipline over the next few days with my diet and drop a pound or so. Race weight = 145, current weight = 149.

ridethecliche

I get what you're saying but that comparison is flawed. In the first instance you're basically doing cardio

ridethecliche

Correct.

mollusk

Now posts are peer reviewed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VRBWLpYCPY

bostongarden

Just want Professors to feel at home on BF

tspek

The people that talk about the intervals they do, generally do so for a reason that's quantifiable, that's all.

mollusk

I ride faster for longer than I used to. That's quantifiable enough for me. I'm giving ZCI intervals a try even though I used to swear by 2x20's. I'll see how they work as I have a 40 km time trial coming up in early May.

kudude

it's pretty hard to quantify bumps in FTP regardless. The testing process isn't one you can get data points with on a weekly basis. That, coupled with the fact that these intervals aren't the ONLY riding going on make it pretty hard to really quantify the gains. Ze's is the only study I've seen that tries.

edit: didn't mean to imply that Ze did the study, just that he posted some results

euphoria

I thought Ze's intervals were at 105-110% of FTP? That is not how SST is defined in the article. I tried them last Friday, and stoplights did muddle the results, but I def. cannot do them multiple times a week like you predict.

lol @ mollusk's vid

edit: can someone repost the protocol for the Ze interval?

ridethecliche

Yeah, maybe you're right. But I thought they were SST-esque because the output is high but the duration is low enough that recovery isn't a problem.

I was using the working definition of SST i.e. most bang for buck without burnout chance.

You're probably right though.

kudude

5- 8 reps (6 ideal) of 5 minutes at 103-108% FTP, with 1 minute in between.

slim_77

if on the trainer, PE + (cadence + speed+ HR)

I still have trouble pacing a target wattage outside, and so I'm going based on 50% PE and 50% glancing at my PT headunit

ldesfor1@ithaca

I like to push FTP for as long as possible. Less stress, more volume, nice results.

BUT, when i really want to see the FTP reach a peak (ummmm, like when peaking) I start the FTP pulling.

this season I'll be doing the 6x5' @ 103-108% 8 weeks out from my peak, twice per week for 3 weeks.
then a short break to unload stress. (why twice per week? -- I seem to respond really well to the first 5-6 workouts, then stagnate. mentally and physically).
then: 3 weeks of 15-25' intervals, pretty much all out, but steadily increasing durration. this is to consolidate on FTP gains from the 6x5's but also to get me ready fo the long TT's that are a huge part of my A races.

tspek

I wasn't talking about quantifying the gains as much as I'm talking about quantifying the reasoning behind a specific method. As you indicated, "Ze's Intervals" are based on scholarship.

kensuf

It's on May 1. Are you doing it?

My Australian Brother and I are going on the super secret stealth training program over the next few weeks...

tspek

..

mollusk

That is the plan.

I could have sworn that when I looked for the date on floridacycling.com earlier in the year it gave a date in late May, so now I have to get into a hurry up mode training-wise.