TDF Team Time Trial Rules
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
This year the Team Time Trial will have a rather unique timing format that is designed to level the playing field somewhat between the stronger and weaker teams. Normally, each team is given the actual time of their 5th man across the line. This year, each team will be assigned a nominal time according to the placing of their team in relation to the winning team unless their time is faster than the nominal time gap that has been established. In that case, they will be awarded their actual time.
So, as the Tour regulations show, the following times will be assigned to each team according to their overall placing:
1st Team: Actual time of 5th man across the line
2nd Team: +20 seconds
3rd Team: +30 seconds
4th Team: +40 seconds
...and so on in 10 second increments according to placing.
So the 10th place team will be awarded the time of the winning team plus 1'40" even if they finish 5 minutes down.
For a complete explanation of this go to : www.letour.fr/2004/docs/reglement_us.pdf
So, as the Tour regulations show, the following times will be assigned to each team according to their overall placing:
1st Team: Actual time of 5th man across the line
2nd Team: +20 seconds
3rd Team: +30 seconds
4th Team: +40 seconds
...and so on in 10 second increments according to placing.
So the 10th place team will be awarded the time of the winning team plus 1'40" even if they finish 5 minutes down.
For a complete explanation of this go to : www.letour.fr/2004/docs/reglement_us.pdf
Last edited by don d.; 06-29-04 at 02:56 PM.
#2
You're just a fat kid
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Holladay, Utah
Posts: 389
Bikes: Felt 45 w/ speedplay x3 pedals
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Wow, that's really stupid. I can't comment with any amount of expertise as i'm not (yet) racing but that means a teams overall time wont reflect their overall skill. I don't see how that's helpful.
#3
Lance Hater
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I like it, I think. Bike racing is a individual and team sport but it seemed that the TTT made it too much of a team sport.
I think.
I think.
#4
You're just a fat kid
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Holladay, Utah
Posts: 389
Bikes: Felt 45 w/ speedplay x3 pedals
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Laggard
I like it, I think. Bike racing is a individual and team sport but it seemed that the TTT made it too much of a team sport.
I think.
I think.
Well, I agree that it could be helpful to people who put in an individual effort greater than what their team can match. But somehow it just seems unjust that the product of the team effort will be somehow diminished or tainted.
#5
Bring the tech
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: S. FLorida
Posts: 1,215
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
What is really scary is this;
So if a team demolishes the field and wins by 2 minutes, it doesn't matter. 2nd place is still only 20 seconds behind.
I didn't really agree with the original 2:30 rule, but I could see the point behind it. 2:30 seconds is a lot of time to make up against the leaders, but still possible. But with these new rules it really makes a mockery of the TTT.
Let's look at least years results;
1 US Postal presented by Berry Floor 1.18.27 (52.77 km/h)
2 O.N.C.E.-Eroski 0.30
3 Team Bianchi 0.43
4 iBanesto.com 1.05
5 Quick.Step-Davitamon 1.23
6 Team Telekom 1.30
7 Vini Caldirola-SO.DI 1.32
8 Crédit Agricole
9 AG2r Prévoyance 1.38
10 Team CSC 1.45
11 Gerolsteiner 1.49
12 Fassa Bortolo 1.53
13 Alessio 2.05
14 Cofidis, Le Crédit par Téléphone 2.06
15 Brioches La Boulangère 2.30
16 Rabobank 2.41
17 Team Saeco 3.02
18 Euskaltel-Euskadi 3.22
19 FDJeux.com 3.29
20 Jean Delatour 3.37
21 Kelme-Costa Blanca 3.49
22 Lotto-Domo 4.53
These new rules would have affected every single team last year.
Andrew
Wonder when we'll start putting gap limits on climbing and ITT stages
If this gap is less than that given in the table below, then the actual time recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.
If the gap is more than that given in the table below, then the rider will receive the time of the winning team plus the additional number of seconds indicated in the table below according to the place of their team.
If the gap is more than that given in the table below, then the rider will receive the time of the winning team plus the additional number of seconds indicated in the table below according to the place of their team.
I didn't really agree with the original 2:30 rule, but I could see the point behind it. 2:30 seconds is a lot of time to make up against the leaders, but still possible. But with these new rules it really makes a mockery of the TTT.
Let's look at least years results;
1 US Postal presented by Berry Floor 1.18.27 (52.77 km/h)
2 O.N.C.E.-Eroski 0.30
3 Team Bianchi 0.43
4 iBanesto.com 1.05
5 Quick.Step-Davitamon 1.23
6 Team Telekom 1.30
7 Vini Caldirola-SO.DI 1.32
8 Crédit Agricole
9 AG2r Prévoyance 1.38
10 Team CSC 1.45
11 Gerolsteiner 1.49
12 Fassa Bortolo 1.53
13 Alessio 2.05
14 Cofidis, Le Crédit par Téléphone 2.06
15 Brioches La Boulangère 2.30
16 Rabobank 2.41
17 Team Saeco 3.02
18 Euskaltel-Euskadi 3.22
19 FDJeux.com 3.29
20 Jean Delatour 3.37
21 Kelme-Costa Blanca 3.49
22 Lotto-Domo 4.53
These new rules would have affected every single team last year.
Andrew
Wonder when we'll start putting gap limits on climbing and ITT stages
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,296
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Laggard
I like it, I think. Bike racing is a individual and team sport but it seemed that the TTT made it too much of a team sport.
I think.
I think.
Why make it 65km if they want 10 second gaps? Stupid.
It is good to see the time gaps lowered... I think the TTT just becomes far too important without it... but I would much rather just see a shorter distance.
#8
Lance Hater
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
My understanding was that the Tour organizers were never huge fans of the TTT and that they include it mostly because fans seem to love it.
This may be there way of including it without making it a true deciding factor in the race.
This may be there way of including it without making it a true deciding factor in the race.
#9
Rider in the Storm
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 736
Bikes: LeMond Zurich, KHS Fiero (Fixed), Centurion Ironman Expert
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
So I guess this really means that no team will expend any real effort because there is virtually no benefit from doing so....just a rest day, I guess.
#10
Photog Extraordinaire
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 863
Bikes: Santa Cruz Chameleon, Cannondale R800 (CAAD4) with Dura-Ace upgrade
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
While I think this is a ridiculous approach to this, I disagree that it will lead to a rest day. For those strong contenders for the GC 10 to 20 seconds can be a big difference as to who is wearing yellow after the first mountain stage and can change the overall complexion of the race (who is defending, who is attacking, etc.) I think that people gunning for the GC will be putting in just as intense of an effort. Teams who are just there for sprints or stage wins might choose to take it easier, but then pride might be an issue too, it's hard to say.
#11
Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: SE PA
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I agree with Laggard. I think the TTT was a bit rough on the weaker teams. I don't see why they couldn't just make it a shorter distance though rather than institute these weird new rules, but I am glad they did something to make the race more of an individual effort.
Last edited by gruven; 06-30-04 at 09:21 AM.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Monroe, Wa
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I think it's a dumb rule. One team demolishes another only to gain 10'.
I agree with brent, shorten the race if you want closer gaps and give them what they've earned on the road.
I agree with brent, shorten the race if you want closer gaps and give them what they've earned on the road.
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Singapore
Posts: 566
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
We'll have a new record, all-time slowest TTT ever. There won't be any incentives to ride. So I believe the new record for the TTT will be like 3 days? Enough for them to rest well and start the rest of the tour with a brand new body.
As well, I agree with the shortening of the course.
As well, I agree with the shortening of the course.
#14
Not-so-Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Norfolk, England
Posts: 805
Bikes: Orbea Enol roadie, Fly Micromachine BMX, Fort Track fixed
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Why would they not ride hard? Just 'cos you can't put 2 minutes on a team doesn't mean you don't want to put 10s on them. And if, say, Phonak pushed really hard and won (by however much), but their arch rivals for the GC Rabobank didn't bother and finished tenth (losing them 1.40), Phonak could totally justify their effort. Every team will be hoping every other team will do a Rabobank and not push as hard as they might have (two random names I picked out of my head, nothing personal).
But what they really should do if they want an accurate team time trial is have an individual TT, and take the top 3 or 5 riders in each team and give the whole team an aggregate time based on those riders. Every team has at least a couple of good TTers, and that way the rest of the team wouldn't be slowing them down.
But what they really should do if they want an accurate team time trial is have an individual TT, and take the top 3 or 5 riders in each team and give the whole team an aggregate time based on those riders. Every team has at least a couple of good TTers, and that way the rest of the team wouldn't be slowing them down.
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Someplace trying to figure it out
Posts: 10,664
Bikes: Cannondale EVO, CAAD9, Giant cross bike.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
6 Posts
Originally Posted by brent_dube
Going by that statement... I think it would make a lot more sense to either get rid of the TTT, or shorten the TTT.
Why make it 65km if they want 10 second gaps? Stupid.
It is good to see the time gaps lowered... I think the TTT just becomes far too important without it... but I would much rather just see a shorter distance.
Why make it 65km if they want 10 second gaps? Stupid.
It is good to see the time gaps lowered... I think the TTT just becomes far too important without it... but I would much rather just see a shorter distance.
I think what will happen is that teams like Postal and T-Mobile will take it easy and not expend effort that can be used later in the race. The GC teams will probably all stay close to each other.
IMO, it will not even be worth watching. If they felt it was too much of an influence on the event results, just drop it. Doing it this way just makes the organizers look stupid.
Last edited by roadwarrior; 06-30-04 at 05:22 AM.
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Someplace trying to figure it out
Posts: 10,664
Bikes: Cannondale EVO, CAAD9, Giant cross bike.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
6 Posts
Originally Posted by Jonny B
Why would they not ride hard? Just 'cos you can't put 2 minutes on a team doesn't mean you don't want to put 10s on them. And if, say, Phonak pushed really hard and won (by however much), but their arch rivals for the GC Rabobank didn't bother and finished tenth (losing them 1.40), Phonak could totally justify their effort. Every team will be hoping every other team will do a Rabobank and not push as hard as they might have (two random names I picked out of my head, nothing personal).
But what they really should do if they want an accurate team time trial is have an individual TT, and take the top 3 or 5 riders in each team and give the whole team an aggregate time based on those riders. Every team has at least a couple of good TTers, and that way the rest of the team wouldn't be slowing them down.
But what they really should do if they want an accurate team time trial is have an individual TT, and take the top 3 or 5 riders in each team and give the whole team an aggregate time based on those riders. Every team has at least a couple of good TTers, and that way the rest of the team wouldn't be slowing them down.
Why expend effort here to not receive the full impact? No way I'd do that. It's not worth it. Save it for later.
The teams with true GC riders will watch each other and make sure they stay close to each other.
It would be hilarious if a team like Euskatel won the stage. That would make the organizers really look foolish for maniuplating the results. Which is all this is.
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Someplace trying to figure it out
Posts: 10,664
Bikes: Cannondale EVO, CAAD9, Giant cross bike.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
6 Posts
Originally Posted by gruven
I agree with Laggard. I think the TTT was a bit rough on the weaker teams.
#18
Photog Extraordinaire
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 863
Bikes: Santa Cruz Chameleon, Cannondale R800 (CAAD4) with Dura-Ace upgrade
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by roadwarrior
Because the riders who really can win the thing can put 10 seconds on someone in a mountain stage in a snap. To a GC rider, 10 seconds is nothing.
#19
Bring the tech
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: S. FLorida
Posts: 1,215
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
What I don't get here is why do this in the TTT? Looking over the past results 2000-2003 the TTT has never produced huge gains like a good day in the mountains or a good ITT, at least in the top 10 and even somewhat over the field (worst finish is about 6 minutes behind), and considering that this stage is usually the 4th/5th stage where riders will already be 10-20 minutes behind the GC, that extra time is hardly notable.
Compare that to the ITT where you can have 13+ minutes seperate first and last and often times have 2+ minutes seperate 1-4 (sometimes 1-3).
Or a mountain stage where you often have 40+ minutes seperating first and last.
I bet it came from what happened last year, when Euskaltel had 2 GC class riders out in front but couldn't get their TTT together and finished 3+ minutes down in the pack (18th out of 22).
Andrew
Compare that to the ITT where you can have 13+ minutes seperate first and last and often times have 2+ minutes seperate 1-4 (sometimes 1-3).
Or a mountain stage where you often have 40+ minutes seperating first and last.
I bet it came from what happened last year, when Euskaltel had 2 GC class riders out in front but couldn't get their TTT together and finished 3+ minutes down in the pack (18th out of 22).
Andrew
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,296
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Ajay213
What I don't get here is why do this in the TTT? Looking over the past results 2000-2003 the TTT has never produced huge gains like a good day in the mountains or a good ITT,
To get back 3 minutes is asking a lot.
#21
Bananaed
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Philly-ish
Posts: 6,426
Bikes: 2001 Lemond Nevada City (only the frame remains)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by gruven
I don't see why they couldn't just make it shorter a shorter distance though rather than institute these weird new rules
__________________
If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination.
- Thomas De Quincey
- Thomas De Quincey
#22
In Difficulty
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Portland, Maine, USA
Posts: 138
Bikes: Bianchi Brava
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
So, let's see how these rules would have affected last year's Tour.
Postal Wins
Bianchi loses 30 seconds (instead of 43)
Telekom loses 1:00 (instead of 1:30)
Euskaltel loses 3:00 (instead of 3:22)
What would have happened down the road?
GC After stage 8 Alpe D'Huez (real results in parenthesis)
1. Lance Armstrong
3. Alexandre Vinokourov +0:47 (+1:17)
4. Iban Mayo +0:48 (+1:10)
8. Jan Ullrich +1:57 (+2:10)
* Vino would've been ahead of Mayo in GC
GC After stage 8 Bourg d'Oisans - Gap
1. Alexandre Vinokourov
2. Lance Armstrong +0:09 (-0:21)
3. Iban Mayo +0:40 to Armstrong (+1:02 to Armstrong)
6. Jan Ullrich +1:57 to Armstrong (+2:10 to Armstrong)
* Vino takes the lead!
GC After stage 12 - ITT
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich +0:21 (+0:34)
2. Alexandre Vinokourov +0:21 (+0:51)
* Vino and Ullrich tied
GC after stage 13 Toulouse - Plateau de Bonascre
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich +0:02 (+0:15)
3. Alexandre Vinorourov +0:31 (+1:01)
* Getting nervous, Lance?
GC after stage 14 Saint-Girons - Loudenvielle
1. Alexandre Vinokourov
2. Lance Armstrong +0:08 (-0:18)
3. Jan Ullrich +0:02 to Armstrong (+0:15 to Armstrong)
* Vino takes the lead again!
GC after stage 15 Bagnères-de-Bigorre - Luz-Ardiden
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich +0:54 (+1:07)
3. Alexandre Vinokourov +2:15 (+2:45)
* Jan has less than a minute gap going into the last ITT
This definitely would've made for an exciting race. The fact that Vino would've taken the lead after stage 8 and especially after stage 14 could have had a major effect on the way that the race unfolded.
Postal Wins
Bianchi loses 30 seconds (instead of 43)
Telekom loses 1:00 (instead of 1:30)
Euskaltel loses 3:00 (instead of 3:22)
What would have happened down the road?
GC After stage 8 Alpe D'Huez (real results in parenthesis)
1. Lance Armstrong
3. Alexandre Vinokourov +0:47 (+1:17)
4. Iban Mayo +0:48 (+1:10)
8. Jan Ullrich +1:57 (+2:10)
* Vino would've been ahead of Mayo in GC
GC After stage 8 Bourg d'Oisans - Gap
1. Alexandre Vinokourov
2. Lance Armstrong +0:09 (-0:21)
3. Iban Mayo +0:40 to Armstrong (+1:02 to Armstrong)
6. Jan Ullrich +1:57 to Armstrong (+2:10 to Armstrong)
* Vino takes the lead!
GC After stage 12 - ITT
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich +0:21 (+0:34)
2. Alexandre Vinokourov +0:21 (+0:51)
* Vino and Ullrich tied
GC after stage 13 Toulouse - Plateau de Bonascre
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich +0:02 (+0:15)
3. Alexandre Vinorourov +0:31 (+1:01)
* Getting nervous, Lance?
GC after stage 14 Saint-Girons - Loudenvielle
1. Alexandre Vinokourov
2. Lance Armstrong +0:08 (-0:18)
3. Jan Ullrich +0:02 to Armstrong (+0:15 to Armstrong)
* Vino takes the lead again!
GC after stage 15 Bagnères-de-Bigorre - Luz-Ardiden
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich +0:54 (+1:07)
3. Alexandre Vinokourov +2:15 (+2:45)
* Jan has less than a minute gap going into the last ITT
This definitely would've made for an exciting race. The fact that Vino would've taken the lead after stage 8 and especially after stage 14 could have had a major effect on the way that the race unfolded.
#23
Mad Town Biker
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 974
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Just out of curiosity, I calculated the time differences if the TTT rules were in place last year. As you can see, all but one of the time differences would have been less than a minute. Jan would have picked up 13 seconds on Lance, for example.
Personally, I don’t see what the big deal is Everyone knows what the rules are, they just happen to be different than last year. Big deal! The difference in the race will be minimal IMHO.
-murray
Code:
Place Team Old Time New Time Difference 1 US Postal presented by Berry Floor 1.18.27 (52.77 km/h) 2 O.N.C.E.-Eroski 0:00:30 0:00:20 0:00:10 Gained 3 Team Bianchi 0:00:43 0:00:30 0:00:13 Gained 4 iBanesto.com 0:01:05 0:00:40 0:00:25 Gained 5 Quick.Step-Davitamon 0:01:23 0:00:50 0:00:33 Gained 6 Team Telekom 0:01:30 0:01:00 0:00:30 Gained 7 Vini Caldirola-SO.DI 0:01:32 0:01:10 0:00:22 Gained 8 Crédit Agricole 0:01:34 0:01:20 0:00:14 Gained 9 AG2r Prévoyance 0:01:38 0:01:30 0:00:08 Gained 10 Team CSC 0:01:45 0:01:40 0:00:05 Gained 11 Gerolsteiner 0:01:49 0:01:50 0:00:01 Lost 12 Fassa Bortolo 0:01:53 0:02:00 0:00:07 Lost 13 Alessio 0:02:05 0:02:10 0:00:05 Lost 14 Cofidis 0:02:06 0:02:20 0:00:14 Lost 15 Brioches La Boulangère 0:02:30 0:02:30 0:00:00 Same 16 Rabobank 0:02:41 0:02:35 0:00:06 Gained 17 Team Saeco 0:03:02 0:02:40 0:00:22 Gained 18 Euskaltel-Euskadi 0:03:22 0:02:45 0:00:37 Gained 19 FDJeux.com 0:03:29 0:02:50 0:00:39 Gained 20 Jean Delatour 0:03:37 0:02:55 0:00:42 Gained 21 Kelme-Costa Blanca 0:03:49 0:03:00 0:00:49 Gained 22 Lotto-Domo 0:04:53 0:03:05 0:01:48 Gained
Personally, I don’t see what the big deal is Everyone knows what the rules are, they just happen to be different than last year. Big deal! The difference in the race will be minimal IMHO.
-murray
#24
In Difficulty
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Portland, Maine, USA
Posts: 138
Bikes: Bianchi Brava
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Murrays
Personally, I don’t see what the big deal is Everyone knows what the rules are, they just happen to be different than last year. Big deal! The difference in the race will be minimal IMHO.