gsteinb

Yeah. I think I'll end up taking the total hours for a given period and instead of doing 17/21/24 hour kind of thing I'll just average it out to a more manageable number. I'll keep the progression between periods so I'll still have graduation. I can always bail on it if it doesn't work.

For the record I did 3x20s 2-3 days a week for most of last winter. I through some shorter intervals in starting a month before the season.

MDcatV

you won >25% of your races, you should be giving advice, not asking for it, except from maybe racer ex or something.

anyway, you did the 3x20s on the compuwhizzer, right? what intensity did you target (% of threshold if you know it) and were they "big gear", "optimal cadence", something else? just curious.

gsteinb

I did the 3x20s on the emotions. Essentially my metric was distance for 20 miniutes, with the natural limiter being my ability to group three intervals together. Each session I attempted to go further than the last, both in my best interval and as a total of the three. I managed each session better than the last for the entire season. I chose a gear based on feel, but that which I could simply do better than last. Mostly my cadence was 70 ish, and my watts (based on some tests grumpy did) was about 340 or so for the hour.

Bnjmn

I usually do around 6-7hrs/week, maybe 8, maybe 5. What happened to the idea that it is quality, not quantity?

What kind of jobs do you guys work where you have so much time?

gsteinb

that's why I threw the coach thing in
I'm not the brightest bulb in the box, and the plan may be flawed in a way that someone with a coach might know, or some of these book smart PM geeks might know or have read something that'll save me the effort of redoing my program in nov or dec.

gsteinb

so the assumption is mine aren't quality?

botto 

what leads you to believe that gsteinb isn't getting quality time in on the bike? certainly not his results.

cslone

Do what your body tells you. Friel talks about the Periodization schedule and I'm sure it works for some of his clients. (I tried to follow it the past two seasons and couldn't get the good days to fall correctly, so I am going to switch it up a little this year) But there are plenty of knowledgeable people who shoot the Periodization down as antiquated, linking it to being needed to come down off doping cycles in the 60's.

With the advent of the powermeter and Performance Manager in Cycling Peaks, you can learn to read when you need a break and when to pour it on. The need is not there to do a 4:1 or 3:1 work:rest since you can literally see your form vs fitness vs stress. The new age guys look at a rest week as time that you could be improving. Friel himself says if fitness is not improving, it's declining.

Me personally....if it ain't broke, don't fix it. You had a hell of a season this year. I would continue with what works for you and maybe toss in some training of the limiters, if any. I am going to follow Friel's plan loosely with Base 1, 2; Build, etc. But I am not going to do the 4:1 strictly. It'll be more like 2 longer days/1 shorter more intense day/2 longer/1 easier due to my schedule. Lots of 3x20's and SST since FTP is my weakness right now.

Take that FWIW. Everyone has their own secret to success. As for a PM vs coach, both would be beneficial, but with the PM, you really need to have the desire to understand what it's telling you. Doing 3x20's at 400w and bragging about it on the internet doesn't do anything for you. A coach should have the knowledge to see where you're at and map workouts to get you where you want to be.

LT Intolerant

Probably is getting quality time on the bike based on what he's told us.

IME results are as much a factor of native talent, maybe more so, than training correctly.

cslone

I get what you're saying, but based on my Vo2 I should be winning a hell of a lot more in the 3's in that case. For me, it strictly comes down to training.

MDcatV

cslone

Exactly.

gsteinb

sigh, so it's only talent that I get by on. I don't know what I'm doing, and my training lacks quality. good thread. sigh.

Cslone: I'd love to do the same thing again, though those few long weeks were hell...I'm just unclear whether I can get those peak hour weeks in with my job this season. I can do 20-23 pretty easily, it's when things get over 25 that they get kind of sketchy. The hours obviously worked for me, and since I won races in each month of my racing season I'd have to say it's a success.

so with that
base I: 18 hours
base II: 19 hours
base III: 21 hours
base IV: 23 hours
build I: 21 hours
build II: 20 hours

cslone

But if they are quality 20 hour weeks, missing 3-4 hours a week isn't going to be a big deal overall.

LT Intolerant

Don't know what your vo2 max is and why you aren't getting results but here's why I feel the way I do.

• We have a local rider who rides maybe 2xs per week. We have 3 NRC level pros who ride our group ride from time-to-time and they can't shake this guy. He can stay with them on the hills, and flats. He's a freak
  
• A local doctor who quit the sport two years ago after 10 years at the top of the local and national Masters 35,40,45+ scene comes back and literally rides off the front of our local ride with little or no training, for two years.
  
• While I was racing in NCal in the early 90s in Masters 35+ races an ex-TdF rider lines up, with a gut mind you, and rides off the front effortlessly race after race.

These are just three examples of riders whose talent alone brings them crazy results with little or no training. I've seen this pattern repeat itself over and over again since I started racing in 1987. I'm not saying that training and training smart doesn't make a difference, it's just that guys like GSteinB in my opinion get results because of their talent first, not because of the way they train. Again, this is my experience.

LT Intolerant

Sorry, I didn't mean to infer that you don't train hard or smart and that you don't get benefits from your training. But my guess is you are one of those genetic freaks that would kick arse if you trained 15 hours a week or trained 6 hours a week.

umd

who dat?

Lindsay?

gsteinb

I know, I'm just kidding around. But no, I'm not. I wasn't half the rider in my 20s that I am now. It's all due to smarter training.

LT Intolerant

A local doctor who quit the sport two years ago after 10 years at the top of the local and national Masters 35,40,45+ scene comes back and literally rides off the front of our local ride with little or no training, for two years.[/QUOTE]

Lindsay?[/QUOTE]

Corey, Lindsay, and the guy in NCal was the insanely talented (and insane) George Mount.

Bnjmn

Nobody said he wasn't getting SOME quality time in on the bike. Is there really any gain to spending such a huge amount of time on the bike, in addition to the quality time (i.e. intervals)?

gsteinb

Did you get lost on the way to the randoneering forum

How much do you suppose the best riders in NY train?

cslone

Yeah, I don't doubt the talent makes it much easier, but proper training, nutrition and hard work make it complete. My Vo2 max tested last year in the mid 70's* which pretty much makes it easy for me to hang on in any race I get into. I was hanging on to 1/2/3 races with relative ease on very minimal training. My issue was that I did a decent base on the trainer over the winter then the bottom fell out. I got put in the hospital sick with Pneumonia and Bronchitis, 42 days off the bike, then just life in general got in the way. I have a 2 year old and a 1 year old and my job keeps me up for as long as 40 hours for weeks on end sometimes so I felt like doing absolutely nothing. I couldn't even bear to look at the bike although I was doing minimal training. Hit it hard again in June then wasn't getting any results I wanted. I know WHY I wasn't getting the results(lack of training), but I just got frustrated and mentally wrote off the season right there. With no goals comes no motivation. I would guess my average hours from December to June 1 would be somewhere around 3 hours a week.

I finally got my head on straight last month and have been back into 8 hour weeks trying to ramp into it. Looking at averaging 10-12 this winter/week and see where that takes me in Oct/Nov then adjust and ramp up a little from there. Working in a hospital setting(same for my wife) with lack of sleep or a schedule really makes me prone to illness. Add the two reasonably healthy, but still young sick kids and I always get hit hard the week I try to really step it up. I just haven't found my balance yet.

At this point, this may have been a blessing in disguise. I am normally ready to sell my bikes by this point in the year, but now I am quite motivated to come out strong next year. We'll see.


*which I realize equates about to saying my FTP is 400 on these here internets.

YMCA

Yes.
Proven every year by the best riders in the world.
Even by the guys doing short races.

umd

Doesn't everyone have an FTP of 400?

LT Intolerant

I hear ya on this front. No amount of talent or training will compensate for constantly getting sick. I quit the sport when my kids were young because I was always getting sick. They brought it home, had it for a day or two, and I had it for a month.