20k TT in under 30 minutes
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20k TT in under 30 minutes
Right. I am a Junior cyclist (will be 14 years old when the race occurs) for those that don't know I have 3 criterium races, 1 century ride, and group riding experience. My bike is currently a Specialized Allez with no significant upgrades aside from Shimano R-550A wheels. My fastest race was a Criterium on a .6 mile course for half an hour with an average speed of 22 m.p.h. (I drafted for roughly 1/3 of the race) My century ride was somewhat leisurely (rode with dad for half of it) but still sub 8-hours. My sprint speed in the race was 29.4 M.P.H.
I need to do a 20k TT in sub 30 minutes in order to beat another Junior Cyclist who did one in 31:44 on an entry level road bike. Any tips as to what I should do? I have primarily been thinking of intervals, hill intervals, and one legged pedaling. I have until April I believe and the TT is fairly flat.
I need to do a 20k TT in sub 30 minutes in order to beat another Junior Cyclist who did one in 31:44 on an entry level road bike. Any tips as to what I should do? I have primarily been thinking of intervals, hill intervals, and one legged pedaling. I have until April I believe and the TT is fairly flat.
Last edited by PorscheCritter; 10-03-09 at 11:24 PM.
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Do lots of .... 30 min TT efforts.
When you do these intervals, focus and being as aero as possible.
2x20's are good too.
When you do these intervals, focus and being as aero as possible.
2x20's are good too.
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#4
VeloSIRraptor
ride, ... lots.
go read the TT sticky,
do you know how to wrench? go spend some time working on your cabling, "aero-ing" your road bike etc, work on your position and technique... also, don't take this one thing so seriously.
go read the TT sticky,
do you know how to wrench? go spend some time working on your cabling, "aero-ing" your road bike etc, work on your position and technique... also, don't take this one thing so seriously.
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You're talking about a 24.85 MPH average for a 30 minute time on 20K. Certainly possible, but it will take a lot of focused work and a very solid training plan for you to make that sort of progress during the winter.
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dont worry about other juniors too much
everyones body matures at a different rate so if you are getting beat by a 14year old with a beard there is not much to worry about.
All of the other advice in this thread is sound
everyones body matures at a different rate so if you are getting beat by a 14year old with a beard there is not much to worry about.
All of the other advice in this thread is sound
#7
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
1 km at an average of 22 mph (with drafting) is a world apart from a 20 km solo effort at nearly 25 mph... I know lots of fairly decent riders and even old geezers like me who can ride at 22 mph all day but for most riding at 25 mph for 30 minutes solo would be impossible because this is where one really has to train very seriously.
Go for that 20 km ride and make sure you pull the entire way so you get a feel for what you are up against... give it all you have and then dig a little deeper.
You will be humbled.
Use that to motivate yourself to work harder than you ever thought was possible.
Go for that 20 km ride and make sure you pull the entire way so you get a feel for what you are up against... give it all you have and then dig a little deeper.
You will be humbled.
Use that to motivate yourself to work harder than you ever thought was possible.
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1 - assuming the TT bike is not an option, get very comfortable in a "TT" position on the road bike. It's been shown that forearms resting on the tops is more aero than hands in the drops. However, I find it necessary to scootch forward a bit on the saddle to open up the hip angle to do this. (clip on aero bars would help, but I'm also assuming the challenge between the two of you is to compete at same type of equipment, and not sure if aerobars are an option here?)
2 - One legged drills will not make your threshold power go up, ever.
3 - Test: go anywhere and go as hard as you can for 30 minutes. See what your speed was. You need a benchmark to start from.
4 - Intervals: anything less than 4-5 minutes is not helping, don't do them. 2 days per week do either 3x15's, 2x20s, or even better 2x30's. If you have time, every third week or so do a 1 hour hammer session solo - get out, do 5 minute spinning out the legs and then go as hard as you can for an hour, cool down for 5-10 minutes. If you find you enjoy that session, drop one of your interval days and replace it with the 1 hour session so every week you do 1 day of intervals, 1 day of hammering solo for an hour.
5 - every 2-3 wks do 4-5 x 5 minute intervals, all out. This time of year you can leave 10 minutes recovery in between them. As you get closer to your event, reduce the recovery between intervals to 5 minutes. (about a month out you should be doing these intervals weekly with 5 minute on, 5 minute off)
6 - realize that ~25 mph for a TT is a "golden" number for a lot of cyclists. There are tons and tons of good racers that aren't doing 25mph for a 20km TT in full TT setup, let alone a standard road bike.
Finally - if dad is a cyclist, ask him for help on this.
2 - One legged drills will not make your threshold power go up, ever.
3 - Test: go anywhere and go as hard as you can for 30 minutes. See what your speed was. You need a benchmark to start from.
4 - Intervals: anything less than 4-5 minutes is not helping, don't do them. 2 days per week do either 3x15's, 2x20s, or even better 2x30's. If you have time, every third week or so do a 1 hour hammer session solo - get out, do 5 minute spinning out the legs and then go as hard as you can for an hour, cool down for 5-10 minutes. If you find you enjoy that session, drop one of your interval days and replace it with the 1 hour session so every week you do 1 day of intervals, 1 day of hammering solo for an hour.
5 - every 2-3 wks do 4-5 x 5 minute intervals, all out. This time of year you can leave 10 minutes recovery in between them. As you get closer to your event, reduce the recovery between intervals to 5 minutes. (about a month out you should be doing these intervals weekly with 5 minute on, 5 minute off)
6 - realize that ~25 mph for a TT is a "golden" number for a lot of cyclists. There are tons and tons of good racers that aren't doing 25mph for a 20km TT in full TT setup, let alone a standard road bike.
Finally - if dad is a cyclist, ask him for help on this.
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#9
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I've never broken 1 hr for 40k/25mi (fastest = 1:03). The fastest I've gone is about 25 mph for 7 miles. So my advice is not from experience, but I think that the following will give you something to think about:
https://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/...-of-power.html
Basically he emphasizes the aero position and, more importantly, the steady effort. If you go out too hard, you explode at some point. It's also important to stay aero - head low/level, etc.
Also, you can spin a little gear to a decent speed. Based on USA Cycling rules (if you're racing in the US), your gear limit is 52x14, given normal road tires. Check out the average rpm in the hour record:
https://www.wolfgang-menn.de/hourrec.htm
100 rpm in a 52x14 would give you over 29 mph - I wish I could do that! A 53x17 at 100 rpm would give you 24.5 mph, or just about the pace you need to do your 30 min time. A 50x16 (if you have compact) gives you about the same gear (1 tooth difference).
My best TT I felt pretty horrible so I went out "easy", spinning the Junior gear limit at the time (53x15). Normally I'd have been pushing a 14 or 13, dipping into the 12 for a few downhill grades. I decided to spin to the turn around and go faster if I felt a bit better. On the way back (more downhills than up), I was flying, and set my best time by a good 30 seconds (16:28 for 7 miles, 25.5 mph). I was "young" at that time - but in about 7 years you'll be how old I was when I did that time. I was skinny, fit, and had a lot of gear - disc wheel, aero bars, aero helmet, skinsuit, 24" front wheel, 17 mm tires pumped so hard I had to ask someone heavier to pump them up (I just lifted my body up once I hit about 130 psi, and I wanted 140 psi). The works. No aero bars, they hadn't hit yet.
Roy Knickman, as a Junior, killed it in the Jr TT. I think it was 1983, when he won everything, but I forget. Whatever, the TT was a headwind out, tailwind back, and he did something like 30 mph on the way back, in a 53x15, so about 110 rpm.
Finally, at 14, a critical critical critical thing is bike fit. Your position may change monthly. Check your inseam regularly, and adjust your seat height appropriately. Keep the ratio the same (inseam:seat height). I see a local Junior ride around here and his seat is way too low now, like by 2-3 inches. You may need to get longer stems too, but measuring torso/arm and getting an appropriate stem/tt length is a bit trickier.
Finally, as someone that started racing at about your age, you have to do the following:
- doodle racers, bikes, gear, and stuff while in class
- research endlessly anything you can find on bike racing
- because of the above you'll know more than the older guys. Call them out on errors.
- best if if you have a friend in class that races too - in 8th grade I had 4 of 7 classes with a friend who raced. We talked about bikes all the time.
- give yourself until 18-21 years old before deciding anything regarding bike racing, quitting or turning pro or anything inbetween. It's a great sport, tons of fun.
Good luck,
cdr
https://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/...-of-power.html
Basically he emphasizes the aero position and, more importantly, the steady effort. If you go out too hard, you explode at some point. It's also important to stay aero - head low/level, etc.
Also, you can spin a little gear to a decent speed. Based on USA Cycling rules (if you're racing in the US), your gear limit is 52x14, given normal road tires. Check out the average rpm in the hour record:
https://www.wolfgang-menn.de/hourrec.htm
100 rpm in a 52x14 would give you over 29 mph - I wish I could do that! A 53x17 at 100 rpm would give you 24.5 mph, or just about the pace you need to do your 30 min time. A 50x16 (if you have compact) gives you about the same gear (1 tooth difference).
My best TT I felt pretty horrible so I went out "easy", spinning the Junior gear limit at the time (53x15). Normally I'd have been pushing a 14 or 13, dipping into the 12 for a few downhill grades. I decided to spin to the turn around and go faster if I felt a bit better. On the way back (more downhills than up), I was flying, and set my best time by a good 30 seconds (16:28 for 7 miles, 25.5 mph). I was "young" at that time - but in about 7 years you'll be how old I was when I did that time. I was skinny, fit, and had a lot of gear - disc wheel, aero bars, aero helmet, skinsuit, 24" front wheel, 17 mm tires pumped so hard I had to ask someone heavier to pump them up (I just lifted my body up once I hit about 130 psi, and I wanted 140 psi). The works. No aero bars, they hadn't hit yet.
Roy Knickman, as a Junior, killed it in the Jr TT. I think it was 1983, when he won everything, but I forget. Whatever, the TT was a headwind out, tailwind back, and he did something like 30 mph on the way back, in a 53x15, so about 110 rpm.
Finally, at 14, a critical critical critical thing is bike fit. Your position may change monthly. Check your inseam regularly, and adjust your seat height appropriately. Keep the ratio the same (inseam:seat height). I see a local Junior ride around here and his seat is way too low now, like by 2-3 inches. You may need to get longer stems too, but measuring torso/arm and getting an appropriate stem/tt length is a bit trickier.
Finally, as someone that started racing at about your age, you have to do the following:
- doodle racers, bikes, gear, and stuff while in class
- research endlessly anything you can find on bike racing
- because of the above you'll know more than the older guys. Call them out on errors.
- best if if you have a friend in class that races too - in 8th grade I had 4 of 7 classes with a friend who raced. We talked about bikes all the time.
- give yourself until 18-21 years old before deciding anything regarding bike racing, quitting or turning pro or anything inbetween. It's a great sport, tons of fun.
Good luck,
cdr
#12
Senior Member
I don't mean to be a buzzkill, but that is a very ambitious goal. I consider myself to be a fairly strong younger rider (17), and my only experience with a TT was a 10K rolling hilly course, and it took me in the range of 17 minutes. Granted, I had no aero bars and didn't know that I was doing the TT until the night before, but doing 20K in 30 minutes is a pretty high goal.
Heres what I would recommend:
1)ride a lot. But don't just JRA. Do your proper base training and then start focusing on shorter and more intense intervals.
2)get some rollers and do shorter intervals over the winter (I like 1.5minute and 5minute intervals), they will improve pedaling efficiency and build power)
3)get proper aero gear. This includes helmet, aero bars and shoe covers (at the least)
4)work on position. This is probably more important than aero gear. If you can, work with an experienced TT coach to get you as low/efficient as possible)
5)stay focused. Stick to your plan, eat well, and good luck. Keep us posted.
Heres what I would recommend:
1)ride a lot. But don't just JRA. Do your proper base training and then start focusing on shorter and more intense intervals.
2)get some rollers and do shorter intervals over the winter (I like 1.5minute and 5minute intervals), they will improve pedaling efficiency and build power)
3)get proper aero gear. This includes helmet, aero bars and shoe covers (at the least)
4)work on position. This is probably more important than aero gear. If you can, work with an experienced TT coach to get you as low/efficient as possible)
5)stay focused. Stick to your plan, eat well, and good luck. Keep us posted.
#13
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Thank you. I am very appreciative. So in essence:
-Longer intervals
-Trainer sessions (I have a trainer)
-Positioning/Aero Aids (I believe my dad has some Syntace C2 aerobars somewhere)
-Negative Splitting
-Gear selection (53X17 at slightly over 100 r.p.m.)
Question: Could I justify purchasing a skinsuit if I had aerobars or would another aero-aid be more effective?
-Longer intervals
-Trainer sessions (I have a trainer)
-Positioning/Aero Aids (I believe my dad has some Syntace C2 aerobars somewhere)
-Negative Splitting
-Gear selection (53X17 at slightly over 100 r.p.m.)
Question: Could I justify purchasing a skinsuit if I had aerobars or would another aero-aid be more effective?
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Today I did intervals of 3km and chased cars for an additional 7 miles. (one lap of my short training circuit) I wasn't in such great form today and my saddle definitely needs to be raised. My bike is crosschaining quite badly when I put it in 52x17 (triple crank) so I'm going to have to figure out an alternate gear setting.
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#18
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Today I did intervals of 3km and chased cars for an additional 7 miles. (one lap of my short training circuit) I wasn't in such great form today and my saddle definitely needs to be raised. My bike is crosschaining quite badly when I put it in 52x17 (triple crank) so I'm going to have to figure out an alternate gear setting.
#19
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Today I did intervals of 3km and chased cars for an additional 7 miles. (one lap of my short training circuit) I wasn't in such great form today and my saddle definitely needs to be raised. My bike is crosschaining quite badly when I put it in 52x17 (triple crank) so I'm going to have to figure out an alternate gear setting.
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Oh well!
Observations from today: (my original post was lengthier but got lost)
My new position is aero (back is parallel) and sustainable.
I need to acquire some aerobars as my imaginary aerobars while being quick, are difficult to control.
My knees are hitting my chest
I need to move seat backward as the current setting is too aggressive.
There is a perceptible power loss but the position is far more aero
My neck hurts!
Seat is too high but necessary. (there are 5 months until the TT)
Visited bike shop. Cervelo Dual is $969.00
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It's a triple... 17 is 5th gear on my training wheels and on my race wheels is 3rd I believe.
Oh well!
Observations from today: (my original post was lengthier but got lost)
My new position is aero (back is parallel) and sustainable.
I need to acquire some aerobars my imaginary aerobars while being quick are difficult to control.
My knees are hitting my chest.
I need to move seat backward as the current setting is too aggressive.
There is a perceptible power loss but the position is far more aero
My neck hurts!
Visited bike shop. Cervelo Dual is $969.00
Oh well!
Observations from today: (my original post was lengthier but got lost)
My new position is aero (back is parallel) and sustainable.
I need to acquire some aerobars my imaginary aerobars while being quick are difficult to control.
My knees are hitting my chest.
I need to move seat backward as the current setting is too aggressive.
There is a perceptible power loss but the position is far more aero
My neck hurts!
Visited bike shop. Cervelo Dual is $969.00
I am no TT expert, but if I were, I might say that your seat should come forward and up. This will relax your hip angle and keep your knees from your chest. Also, realize that positional adaptation takes time. With regards to imaginary aerobars, core strength (not an overnight thing) will be the way to deal with that long term. Any pictures of you in position? Not that I would know what to look for to help you. I just like TT pictures.
Oh, and why are you thinking of picking up a dual? There are a LOT of other options for you.
#22
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I am going to try to help you a bit here. But first, what makes the seat forward "too aggressive?" How are you perceiving power loss? Power meter? When you say "sustainable," sustainable for what time period?
I am no TT expert, but if I were, I might say that your seat should come forward and up. This will relax your hip angle and keep your knees from your chest. Also, realize that positional adaptation takes time. With regards to imaginary aerobars, core strength (not an overnight thing) will be the way to deal with that long term. Any pictures of you in position? Not that I would know what to look for to help you. I just like TT pictures.
Oh, and why are you thinking of picking up a dual? There are a LOT of other options for you.
I am no TT expert, but if I were, I might say that your seat should come forward and up. This will relax your hip angle and keep your knees from your chest. Also, realize that positional adaptation takes time. With regards to imaginary aerobars, core strength (not an overnight thing) will be the way to deal with that long term. Any pictures of you in position? Not that I would know what to look for to help you. I just like TT pictures.
Oh, and why are you thinking of picking up a dual? There are a LOT of other options for you.
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I feel a bit "cramped" The seat is slammed all the way forward. My original post was a bit more detailed but technical difficulties struck! I tootled around on the road and on my trainer to get accustomed to it and I believe I can easily hold it for the duration of the TT.
With regards to core strength while i could improve I am stronger there then nearly everyone in my PE class (though my upper body is seriously weak.) It is more a question of fear of me losing control. I'm still trying to dig up my aerobars. (starting to think I sold them on my old bike now) I'll take some photos tomorrow.
Power loss is mostly based on my own personal feeling so I can't confirm. It feels quick although I lack the explosiveness.
As for picking up a dual: I have been wanting an S1 since I am still predominantly a road biker. S1 is obviously out of my budget sadly. What recommendations would you have?
With regards to core strength while i could improve I am stronger there then nearly everyone in my PE class (though my upper body is seriously weak.) It is more a question of fear of me losing control. I'm still trying to dig up my aerobars. (starting to think I sold them on my old bike now) I'll take some photos tomorrow.
Power loss is mostly based on my own personal feeling so I can't confirm. It feels quick although I lack the explosiveness.
As for picking up a dual: I have been wanting an S1 since I am still predominantly a road biker. S1 is obviously out of my budget sadly. What recommendations would you have?
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I am going to try to help you a bit here. But first, what makes the seat forward "too aggressive?" How are you perceiving power loss? Power meter? When you say "sustainable," sustainable for what time period?
I am no TT expert, but if I were, I might say that your seat should come forward and up. This will relax your hip angle and keep your knees from your chest. Also, realize that positional adaptation takes time. With regards to imaginary aerobars, core strength (not an overnight thing) will be the way to deal with that long term. Any pictures of you in position? Not that I would know what to look for to help you. I just like TT pictures.
Oh, and why are you thinking of picking up a dual? There are a LOT of other options for you.
I am no TT expert, but if I were, I might say that your seat should come forward and up. This will relax your hip angle and keep your knees from your chest. Also, realize that positional adaptation takes time. With regards to imaginary aerobars, core strength (not an overnight thing) will be the way to deal with that long term. Any pictures of you in position? Not that I would know what to look for to help you. I just like TT pictures.
Oh, and why are you thinking of picking up a dual? There are a LOT of other options for you.