Laggard

There will always be Tyler apologists and those who can't believe that someone as wholesome and all-American as Tyler would ever cheat.

That some European guy with some funny name we can't pronounce was caught and found guilty of doping isn't at all hard to believe.

Devil

VeloNews live Vuelta coverage just reported that the word from Switzerland is that Phonak has suspended Tyler.

lucy

yeah, they have suspended him until "the proceedings are completed"... whatever that means.

https://www.phonak-cycling.ch/News/Ak...-353775c80b3f/

Smoothie104

It's too bad that he will probably get sacked, seeing as he wasn't the one doing this to himself. The team doctors are resposible for him getting caught, as they didn't do their job properly.

He will be paid some hush money so as not to sqeal on the system, thats the way it's always been.

Phonak hired Zulle afterall...

Laggard

Smoothie: Are you saying the team doctors forced Tyler to do this?

SipperPhoto

it really has nothing to do with him being an american or not. Just between everything i've ever read on the guy, and seen in interviews and such, it sounds like it is out of character. Not that he couldn't be a cheater... hell, most of the guys cheat, in one way or another.

My hope is that if he is innocent, he gets vindication. And if he is guilty, he gets what he deserves, whether a suspension, or ban from the sport.

Either way, pro cycling gets yet another black eye.

jeff

sailor

Smoothie, Im gonna have to disagree with your logic there. I dont see this as the team doctors' faults because they didnt cover it up well enough. If this turns out to be true, I see it more as he shouldnt have been doing it in the first place. Shoving off the blame onto the team doctors does nothing.

Schiek

Caption should read "I am not a cheat..."

I think I'm done with this sport.

ManBearPig

Here's another out-there conspiracy type theory. Not a conspiracy, per se, but:

What if Hamilton has some sort of medical condition about which he is embarassed or ashamed, which requires blood transfusions or requires surgery, and he didn't want to disclose this to the public? Does AIDS ever require transfusions - because public knowledge of a disease like that I can imagine would harm his career, just like it does for b-ball players. Perhaps that's what he means when he says anyone who knows me knows this isn't possible?

Smoothie104

I really doubt he would be forced to do anything, but I really doubt he's going to sit around the apartment and give himself transfusions.

What do you think the role of the team doctor is? They don't just put guaze on road rash you know. They are employed to "medically prepare" the riders as best as possible. Here is a blurb from this years TdF

Procycling has a story quoting the French newspaper Le Journal du Dimanche (henceforth JDD), which got its hands on the drug submissions of the Tour teams.

Before the Tour, every team is supposed to present a list of all prescription and non-prescription medicines being used by its riders. According to JDD, the average team from outside of France reported 80 different products.

Reassuringly, none of the products declared to the AFSSAP is categorically banned at the Tour. Less comforting is the news that, in addition to familiar household medicines like paracetamol, antihistamine and vitamins, the AFSSAP received and approved requests for ‘heavy’ products whose conventional application is difficult to reconcile with the needs of an endurance athlete. Fructose diphosphate, a treatment for respiratory disorders, various diuretics, coronary dilators and products for the detoxification of the liver belong firmly in the latter category.
One of the more interesting declared prescriptions was for pentoxifylline which, according to its website, "is used to improve blood flow in patients with circulation problems to reduce aching, cramping, and tiredness in the hands and feet. It works by decreasing the thickness (viscosity) of blood. This change allows your blood to flow more easily, especially in the small blood vessels of the hands and feet."

One team declared 155 products.

A doctor for fdjeux.com said he would expect "around 30 products, no more ... Nothing justifies such an arsenal of products."



Pretty wild stuff eh?

Interesting note: I received an email update/newsletter from the WADA the other day, apparently the administration of IV's will be prohibited in 2005, so no more IV hydration or mysterious "vitamin drips" IV hydration has long been a staple in the Pro ranks, especially during the Grand Tours.

khuon

I had thought about the same thing when this story broke although I imagine that he could have somehow notified the UCI in private.

Xtrmyorick

There will always be *anyone* apologists. The reason you hear everyone say it can't be true about Tyler is because he has so many fans who go beyond simple fandom. People see what Tyler does and it shows them how amazing a person can be, it inspires them. To have his accomplishments shown to be due to cheating would invalidate all that inspiration. People don't believe Tyler is doping because it would be too hard on them and how they view someone so inspirational. On a personal note, I would be just as crushed if Magnus Backstedt were caught doping because he's such an inspiration for me. It's that emotional investment that makes me fervently believe he's not doping.

So yes, often times it's OK if "some European guy" gets caught because most people you talk with don't have an emotional attachment to that particular rider. But I guarantee you that there are any number of Europeans who would be saying the exact same things about him as people here are saying about Tyler.

lotek 

The thing that I'm wondering is about the reliability of the tests. These are new
tests, no? just initiated this year. False positives? I need to do alot more
reading on them before I believe any of it. The delay of the IOC results is also
suspect as they are really quick to both report results and revoke medals.

The more I read about this, the more I suspect that Manzani was right and
should be cannonized not vilified, Simeoni too (although I hate his protest crap).


Marty

Smoothie104

I thought about the fact that the tests are new too, but if his B samples also test positive, what are the chances of 4 out of 4 false positive for one athlete? and none for anyone else?

Smoothie104

More Info....


Hamilton pulled out of the Vuelta on Sept. 16, citing stomach problems. He acknowledged Tuesday that that action had been in part because of the positive test.

He said he had returned to Switzerland to watch personally as the second test is done. He offered to give another blood sample, and when the UCI refused he gave a sample independently to a laboratory in Spain.

He also asked for the original blood to undergo DNA tests, in case his sample had got confused with someone else's, but the UCI refused.

Hamilton said he wasn't feeling sorry for himself because he was putting all his energy into fighting the case.

"The last four days have been horrible for me. It has probably been the four worst days of my life. I haven't slept very well and I've had some very low moments," he said.

"I am sad, but I'm not close to crying. ... I'm mad."

Hornbiker

Found this letter at VeloNews...interesting at the very least. How dependable is this test anyway?


Weird Science
Editors,
Re: Detection of Homologous blood doping.

I have searched the scientific literature for publications on this methodology. I have found a single publication, by Nelson et al. November 2003 Haematologica 1284-1295 in which they describe using this technology on a total of 25 patients. It appears to me that, given the difficulties in getting antibody dilutions correct for flow cytometry analysis and the relative novelty of this technology and its lack of validation in other laboratories, that this should be treated as an experimental technology. It is by no means foolproof. Using the results of such a novel technique to make decisions that threaten the career of any professional cyclist, let alone one of Tyler Hamilton's stature, is outrageous. To make such results public before further testing can be done is libelous.

Several questions must be asked at this point:

How valid is the test on a larger population of athletes and normal people?
Can the tests be reproduced in other labs not associated with the one who published the above paper?
Is there any other evidence for blood doping such as high hematocrit or large changes in hematocrit from test to test?
If the test is working is there another possible source of the homologous blood such as surgical procedures?
I hope that Tyler Hamilton can be cleared of this charge as quickly as possible and that there is no lasting taint from this scandal.
Sincerely,
David J. Heard, Ph.D (Biochemistry)
Paris France

sailor

Well said. It is because of all of that that I would be so disappointed were this to be true. Unfortunately, given the apparent prevalence of doping in professional cycling, I wouldnt be surprised. Disappointed, not surprised.

As for the validity of the drug tests, while it is true that they may not be the most accurate tests, and some may question their validity, failing it four seperate times doesnt bode too well...

dasher

If Tyler asked for the original blood to undergo DNA tests, why would the UCI refuse to do it?

NeoBinary

This statement is so quickly made by many people, but let's think about Richard Virenque. He was in the middle of the Festina scandal and now he's still the darling of climbers everywhere.

timmhaan

not sure. better ask that guy who came up with the conspiracy theory a few posts back.

qmsdc15

Well, I'm at the point where I'm assuming all pros use blood or EPO but blood is easier to avoid detection if you use your own damn blood! EPO can be used during training and it's gone by the time of race but UCI does track down riders for random out of competition tests. Banking the blood for later use might make rider weaker so training suffers, maybe it's hard to save enough up and still maintain base fitness? If you can save enough of your own blood, and the doctors don't add too much at any given time (to keep hemocrit % within legal limits) it's not detectable and you go faster. I'm assuming blood is topped off to keep hemocrit near max and it's your own blood and not drugs so it's easy for riders, team to rationalize to themselves that transfusion is OK.

Bicycle racing now has the crediblitity of professional wrestling, maybe can become as popular like wrestling if guys punch each other more often.

brent_dube

He is saying that the team doctors are responsible for keeping him from testing positive.
I think he ment that the team doctors are just part of the plan, and made a mistake... not that the team doctors were the ones who gave the idea to dope.

He never tested positive during the scandal and never admitted that year. And he was much younger.

If the test is flawed, then how come he tested positive on two separate occasions, while no other athlete ever has been positive once?? And there are other athletes who have been tested far more than Hamilton in the last few months.

I think blood tests now can detect EPO use going back a month or two.
Or, how far back can they? Could anyone fill me in?

Walter

Where's the B results?

They're the only "hope" for Tyler now. They either vindicate him or the other shoe drops.

Reports said the results would be available Wed. Switxerland is, I believe, 4 hours ahead of my EDT so I'd think the lab should be done by now.

As someone who admittedly has a harder time believing Hamilton a doper than any other rider in the peloton nationality nonwithstanding, I'm really hoping he's vindicated.

If vindicated it needs to be a full exoneration, not a technicality though. I don't know if that's very likely. Best he can hope for is to hold onto his medal and be ready to hear the fans chant "dopay" as he rides past.

There have been some seemingly legit observations made about potential areas of error in the new test and I do wonder why the IOC has waited so long. They're usually pretty aggressive about yanking medals.

qmsdc15

If EPO can be detected 2 months after use maybe that's a reason to use tranfusions. When I first heard of blood doping it refered to transfusions but I thought EPO made transfusion obsolete. With new tests maybe its easier to get away with transfusions? Still trance of EPO is gone before benefits are gone. I believe Lance told or implied/let slip to Lemond that all successful racers use EPO as overheard by Kathy. Too bad he didn't know EPO wasn't available to Lemond and too bad he couldn't chase Greg down in a breakaway like he did Simione. Will Dr. Ferrari be allowed to practice "medicine" behind bars? Will Lance go to jail for his treatments (just visiting)?

meb

DNA test- two confused samples from two different events?
If the sample is mixed up, I’d suspect some mighty extensive conspiracy.

Given the newness of the tests, we have both suspect false positives from an unproven test and the catching of folks on a test that never suspected s test for cross packing would be first implemented at the 2004 Olympics.

Any news of other athletes at the Olympics failing this test? I’d think most blood packing would be auto-packing given the personal safety issues.

Given the increase health risks of donated blood vs. autopacking, why would athletes use donated blood rather than packing their own frozen blood?

Has anything been said about his blood count?

Does this test distinguish between transfusions specific to red blood cells, or detect the presence of any blood product transfusion?
Would platelet or white blood cell transfusions also give false positives?

Someone earlier mentioned bleeding all the time, that might suggest hemophyllia.

I know many anemic persons receive transfusions.