spinwax

Not true.

Fabian on most days puts out as much or more WKG than most riders in the peloton (I would bet more than most of the best climbers in the world). On paper this would lead most to believe that he should be able to beat most up a hill; incorrect. It is extremely hard for folks to wrap their head around the fact that a guy that may weigh 135lbs and puts out 4.5WKG can beat a guy that weighs 180 and puts out 5WKG up a hill. Climbing employs entirely different muscle groups, breathing technique, mental state. Kinetics plays a major part (on top of WKG) in the art of climbing, as well as being a great time trialist. This is not saying one rider can't be great at both (ie. Contador, Armstrong, Merckx, Ulrich, etc, etc, etc).

If WKG was everything there are plenty of podium contenders out there that would not be contending the podium.

RChung

If you want reasonably high precision (which is what you'll need in order to distinguish small differences in drag) you're going to have to be pretty careful with your protocol and to use a data logger.

king-tony

Sure. If you go to a wind tunnel, at least a reputable tunnel, they will make changes to your position to drop your head (assuming you don't already have a really good position coming in). Once the body is in position and your head is down, they will then work with different helmets to find the best fit between your head and upper back. Granted, this is a mostly static process and when you are racing, dropping your head and sending the tail up happens and with some people actually helps. People have weird neck flexibility. I have seen people who could barely drop their head an inch while others were amazingly flexible and could get really low. Even if you can't get low, there will be an ideal helmet that will fill the back/head junction. Lowering and raising the bars, changing the width of the elbow pads, moving the hands up or down - all have an impact, but of the 15 or so people I have seen got through the process, most benefited more from dropping their head and getting the right helmet than all of the other changes combined.

Racer Ex 

Stable temp, as little wind as possible (zero is good); multiple runs with the same set up, and avoid comparing data from different days.

He's shown at the Olympics, Worlds, and at the TDF that he can climb as well or better than people who are assumed to be "climbers", at least for one day efforts.

Same muscle groups, some difference in proportional effort by those groups, some difference in contraction point because of position. Pedaling is pedaling though.

I breathe the same going uphill as I do on the flats if I'm in a TT or OTF, same with my brain. If I'm in a group my mental state is doing race management, but that's the same if it's flat or going uphill.

Ayup. Individual fatigue curves are huge. It's really awesome to have a big w/kg number, but that only measures a discrete time frame when the rider is presumably fresh. It's why I can out sprint some guys with 1600w peaks at the end of a longer or harder race. Or beat guys with big FTP numbers based on 20 minute tests at the end of a 4 hour slug fest.

OP: Position is a very individual thing. And what looks good from the side might be horrible from the front.

spinwax

You are correct. I should have stated it differently. Same muscle groups used during a flat TT on a TT bike, but the application percentage of certain groups will change when climbing on a road bike in an upright position.

You might, but many don't hense the reason two guys that have the same build, same WKG, same position on a bike, etc may have completely different outcomes on the TT or in a climb. I feel quite different when I am doing a solo effort on a TT bike than I do in a road race. Of course it is all individual just like position like the OP was asking about. What works for one guy may or may not work for another.

Racer Ex 

We might be defining "mental state" differently in this case, but I don't think that there's a de facto different mental or physical difference between climbing or not. Focus, concentration, knowing your limits, and a willingness to suffer for long periods... but yes, when I hear guys go "I hate my TT bike" or "I hate climbing" I know how they'll probably ride in the race. And of course being in a mass start vs. a TT is different, unless you're OTF solo a lot.

RChung

Unfortunately, those are necessary but (depending on the size of the effect you're trying to measure) they might not be sufficient. I've gotten pretty good precision with a data logger that records speed but precision by just doing coastdowns and trying to compare either rollout or max speed has been pretty terrible. Maybe the OP will be luckier (or has better experimental control) than I.

Racer Ex 

There's more there, but I didn't have the time or inclination to go through the full protocol, I have it written out but stored on another computer. My field stuff (coastdowns) are very tightly constrained and I've gotten comparative differentials that were backed up by the tunnel, been using max speed logged on an SRM set to record at 0.5 secs. Field stuff is always the poor stepchild to the tunnel, but it beats looking at pictures .

RChung

Yes, the eye is a poor estimator of drag.

Speaking of speed recording with a SRM, have you ever seen a value for speed of, say, 40.1 km/h (as opposed to 40.0 or 40.2 km/h)?

Racer Ex 

Yep. I've had multiple instances of 3 runs that were exactly the same, then changing set ups and getting .2 km/hr increases or decreases. Good example:



R1 R2 R3 M/S W/Est

51.8 51.8 51.8 14.3889 353.4 A2 bar

51.6 51.6 51.6 14.3333 349.6 A2 bar elbow in

RChung

No, I meant literally have you ever seen a value for speed of 40.1 km/h. I've never seen a value for speed that ends in .1, .3, .5, .7, or .9.

Racer Ex 

Hmmmm.

Nope.

Thoughts?

ruindd

Kind of OT, but is that a stubby safety training helmet Millar is wearing, or is that pic from a race? And if it is training, he trains in his nat titile leotard...?

BeeSeeBee

It's from the 2010 World Championship TT I believe. Stubby helmets are gaining in popularity. The one he's wearing was profiled here. They're not the only ones though, a lot of companies are shortening up the tails. Kask, Rudy, Casco (popular with track riders).

As with the arm position in the original post, a stubby tail working better for you would have to be tested, there's no definitive answer.

Flash

Yes, as noted it's the 2010 world championships. Also, I missed it the first time around, but he's using non-circular chainrings.

Racer Ex 

Osymetrics.

RChung

It's a good thing you're doing your tests at relatively high speed. The lower the speed the larger the percentage error which makes identifying small differences more difficult. This isn't a problem with 0.5 sec recording, btw; it appears that all SRMs have this "feature" at all recording intervals. I don't know if the anomaly sits in the crank or the Power Control -- I guess one way to figure it out would be to pair an ANT+ head to a SRM crank and see what comes out but I've never done that experiment.

Grumpy McTrumpy

in MPH my SRM graduates in .1

it is sort of understandable that in KPH it would be .2

RChung

That's interesting. It never occurred to me that the mph precision might be better than the kph precision.

Anyway, this is an oddity and only matters if you're doing the kinds of VE calculations that I do at both high and low (very low) speeds. I wouldn't worry much about it if you're doing coastdowns and just comparing max speed.

Racer Ex 

Ayup. That was the thought. I have a very short steep hill that's essentially in a gully so it's a low wind area also. Turn around time for each run is pretty short so there's not a lot of temp change over the course of a session. Interesting reading about Hoy's kilo record attempt and the effect 1-2 degrees had on it.

I guess I'm going back to MPH, I hadn't realized the .2 km/hr incremental readout. Nice observation.