chadteck

We've had some trouble with our local police department lately and we are unable to use the course that's been used for around 20 years. They seem determined to put an end to our weekly crit, so I'm looking for suggestions.

Does your city have one? How many people show up? Where is it (public or private roads)? If public roads, do you run stop signs? Is it organized / insured?

Commodus

There are three, 150+ show up for one, I don't know how many for the other two but fewer. Public, organized, insured, with traffic control people. It's still open though, cars can still drive on the course. You have to neutralize when that happens. The traffic control folks are there to give, like...suggestions. Requests.

wens

Yes

50-100?

Public

The only stop sign has a police officer directing traffic for us, but yes we run stop signs.

Yes it's organized and insured. It's not usac sanctioned though, it's a crit on open roads with a centerline rule.

carpediemracing 

Rogue races don't do anyone any good, cyclists or motorists. What would happen if someone crashes and is unconscious? Breaks a collarbone? Etc. I know it sounds like it may not happen that often but that and worse will happen.

Within a couple hours of me there are two weekly crits in CT, one in RI, one in NYC area, and one in MA. All are official races, permits, insurance, etc. On some the roads are open. The one I attend is in a stadium parking lot so it's closed to traffic.

If a town gives permission it lends legitimacy to the whole thing. It really helps if there's a cop there to make it official. A uniformed officer changes people's attitudes pretty quickly - so much so that I prefer to pay a uniformed officer, with a patrol vehicle (which costs extra), to look after my races.

AzTallRider

Ours is called the Underground Crit, if that gives you an idea. No insurance, no sanction, and the guy who puts it together steadfastly refuses to say he organizes it. That said, it has a website, and over 100 people show up: https://www.undergroundcrit.com

Venue is in an industrial park where construction stopped when the recession hit. So the roads are improved, and there are streetlights, but no buildings around the course or inside it. The rectangle we ride doesn't lead anywhere, and with no buildings there is no traffic - also no lights or stop signs. We have several LEO that participate, and the attitude of LE is that, so long as it is not an "official ride" we are okay.

I'd find an officer that rides, and get suggestions as to where they would be okay with just 'looking the other way'.

Kai Winters

Wonder why the police are involved?
Are you using public streets open to traffic?
I'd start with asking the police, talking to the city board, etc to get a permit which means you and/or your organization will need insurance and you probably hire a police officer to keep things safe for drivers and racers.
I've run training crits, crits and 5 day stage races in NE...without insurance, police and city support you are going to be in very unfriendly territory regardless of how long you have used this "course".

canam73

The one I go to is on county fairground roads, USAC 'G' permitted, and costs $5 a night assuming you have a license. It's nice because they change the course up occasionally so you get practice at different types of cornering.

chadteck

Our course was on public roads in the middle of a residential area. It had 3 stop signs per lap that had to be "ignored", but there is little traffic and the streets are very wide and include a wide bike lane. In theory, running the stop signs was dangerous, but in practice I never witnessed any cyclist / motorist collisions and only heard of one (minor) in the 3 years I've known about the crit.

We do have a cop that rode the crit regularly and another that would show occasionally. The police had shown up a few times over the years, but mostly looked the other way.

It looks like we are going to have to organize something, but I think we all share a similar opinion about organizing a ride: we spend enough time and money on this sport to have something else to spend time and money on, in addition to potentially being liable if something goes wrong.

For those of you with organized weekly crits, who organizes them (bike shop, individual, club)? Is $5/rider a typical fee?

AzTallRider

IMO, you'll have much better luck in an industrial park, or someplace similar, than in a residential area. Running stop signs in a residential area that has any traffic, as part of the plan for a race, just isn't a great idea.

chadteck

I agree. We've been looking for a new location but haven't found anything suitable. Since the police now seem determined to shut down our crit (they've faxed bike shops, contacted local club presidents, etc.), we would have to find a location that doesn't require breaking any traffic laws. So far, we haven't found anything.

It looks like we might end up having to organize something, but I just don't see how it is worth it for an individual to do so. That's why I'm curious about who organizes this type of event in other cities.

carpediemracing 

$5 is low. Insurance is $3/rider so that means $2 goes to the promoter. That may seem like "oh, okay, that's fair for a midweek training race" but then you need to think about what makes a USAC race happen.

Technically an official is supposed to be paid (rates are standard for the different categories of races; often a midweek race is officiated for free which is technically incorrect, normal pay is something like $60 or $80), plus there's a permit fee (series or individual weeks, $50 is the lowest I remember), plus there's the membership fee for whatever club holds it (or a promoter's license fee if it's just a promoter) and that's $150 annually.

Someone will need to set up an LLC or something (check with a lawyer) to move a step away from liability. Liability is not personal, it's business. If someone gets paralyzed at an event then it's in that person's estate's interest to try and recoup any costs associated with that injury. It's not personal. The promoter needs to cover themselves legally and financially, by creating a separate legal entity and getting a lot of insurance.

Then whoever holds the race has to get numbers, pins, probably some cones, maybe a lap card set up, probably radios, duct tape (finish line), some folding tables, chairs, maybe a tent, pens, a bunch of releases, maybe brooms or more to sweep course, maybe grate covers, maybe a generator, etc etc etc.

You'll want to pay for at least one portapottie if there aren't public bathrooms around - public urination is illegal in many places, and not being able to go to the bathroom before a race isn't a good thing.

The more automated/convenient you make things the more expensive it is. The more longevity you include the more expensive it is. If you get back ups or spares then you double the cost. Generator, if you need power for any reason - a cheap one might be $300 but you have to yell to be heard if it's less than 50 feet away. A quiet generator is nice but $900-1200 apiece. Cheap radios might go for $25/pair but last only 8 weeks. Good radios might cost $90/pair but last for 30-40 weeks. A cheap tent might be $100, a good one $500. $20 banquet tables are cheaper than $40 folding ones but are a pain to set up and disintegrate after a while. Duct tape - you laugh but to put down a new finish line every week... you'll go through a roll in no time flat.

I spent something like $3000 in supplies/fees in January, another $1000 or so in February, for a 7 week (7 race) spring series. Some of it was standard stuff - state fees for an LLC, stuff like that. Some of it was longer term stuff (cash register, which is a first for us; new radios; some fencing materials) but most of it was consumables (numbers, pins, supplies for printer/releases/etc, various USAC fees, etc). This doesn't include ongoing expenses during the series and some stuff I bought late, like all the trophies, $500-ish, which I didn't pay for until April, or workman's comp, $1300, which I finished paying in May, gasoline for the generators and leaf blowers, etc.

Suddenly $2 for the promoter seems a bit short.

Around here it's $13-14 per week to race a midweek series. I charge $15 pre-reg for the series for one race, $15+$10 if you do two races each week for the whole series, $20 pre-reg per week, $25 per race day of race. I think this is about the minimum possible for a one-permit-per-race race (my spring series are permitted so each race is its own race).

The higher entry allows the promoting entity to officially pay officials, pay permit fees, club stuff, and, depending on the venue, a cop, a land-use fee, etc. Prize money comes out of this as well. It's still not a great money making thing but at least the promoter won't be paying to watch people race, all while risking everything for a 1 in maybe 4000 chance that someone dies at their race, if you figure a racer or two dies each year and there are 4000 races a year (permits are issued in numerical order so just check the permit number of a late summer race... for this year it'll be like 2013-2150 for the 2150th event ... also if you start a permit and void it that permit number is gone, so there will be races missing in the set of permit numbers). I'm guessing on the number of races but a late permit in 2012 generated a #3830 for me.

If you get police permission to hold a race, even if it's a yellow line rule race, stop signs and such don't matter. It's rider and traffic control, riders shouldn't go where they're not supposed to be and cars shouldn't go where they're not supposed to go. It's usually easier to hold a yellow line rule race, even in an industrial park (one around here does that).

I imagine if it's a residential area then you need a lot of marshals to keep cars moving in the same direction as the race (i.e. all traffic goes clockwise with the racers or whatever direction you go) and you need to get some kind of control over random people leaving their driveways (residential so I'm assuming people live there) in the middle of a race. That probably means marshals, equipped with radios. Once you handle that it should be reasonable to hold a race.

Of course at that point you have to convince the town or local association (if condo/development/etc) that it'll be okay too.

It's about at this point that many people start to appreciate even an industrial park crit and really get impressed with any true downtown crit. I'm not even talking about a road race, which is even crazier to try and hold. Or a stage race. Or an NRC race.

At the same time it's something that is done over and over, all over the country. I named all those series within a two hour radius of me. I show up at one of those and I have some confidence in the way the race will be organized and run. If I go to a rogue "race" (I haven't, but I'm thinking of the old SUNY Purchase sprints or even some of the big group rides like Gimbels) it's not as comfortable for me. I'm at the mercy of whoever is out there. There's no backing from the town or the police or anyone.

carpediemracing 

It is almost always a core group of people with an immediate pool of helpers, aka the team/club.

chadteck

Thanks for the info cdr. That looks like a good breakdown for an "official" crit. We would need / want something much less formal. No promotion, no numbers, no lap cards (yelling works fine) and no official. Ideally, we'd have something like ATR describes (which is basically what we had, except for a more suitable venue). Everyone that shows up knows that their is no organizer and they are riding at their own risk. I'm not even sure if we'd have enough participation if we had to charge ~$20/week.

I'm interested to hear what some other cities are doing for their training crits.

canam73

As to the $5 race I mentioned:

It is USAC class G, meaning no official results or race numbers.

There is a start/finish and it is timed like a crit with a 3 lap final countdown on lap cards. Depending on daylight they may run 2-3 rounds.

No prizes, but the team that runs it is shop sponsored so there is usually a drawing for some stuff. (And who wouldn't want another multi-tool, mini-pump or Bell Furio?)

As mentioned, it is held at an otherwise empty county fairgrounds. The bathrooms are unlocked and there is water. Other than at the start/finish table the only other course worker parks at the corner of the single open road way in. The course is laid out with cones and orange tape arrows where needed.

This started as a team only practice but they opened it up to non-team members and they do and charge the bare minimum to cover themselves. Basically, a waiver and USAC insurance. Otherwise, they were used to setting up and running it themselves and still do.

wens

I would be shocked if you can get a permit for a city without insurance and people signing waivers. The city will probably want money for a permit too. That means you're charging money.
You might be able to get local shops, teams, etc to donate merch you can give as prizes. Ours costs $13? I think, has payouts, has a permit with the city and waivers, no numbers or officials, and is put together by an individual. We have enough participation to run both an a and b race.

Rule enforcement is basically peer pressure, and a reminder that we can lose the venue if we don't behave.

Industrial parks are common for this sort of thing because most of the workers leave at five and they frequently have limited access, making it easier to take one over. I'd ask around for ideas for a suitable site and go to the city with some kind of insurance and generic waiver already worked out.

Dolamite02

Having a tacit "understanding" that you're riding at your own risk is absolutely one of the dumbest, most irresponsible things I've ever heard. There was a surprisingly good piece in Bicycling, or Velo, or some other about the liability incurred by organizers of group rides who do so without liability waivers. I guarandamntee you, that that same liability extends to the person putting on an unofficial race whether or not they "refuse admit" anything.

When someone is killed or seriously injured, your "tacit understanding" is going out the window, along with everything you've ever made or owned in your life. You may feel like its no big deal, but when the subpoena shows up at your door or you're standing at a hospital bed trying to explain to some kids parents, or wife, or kids that "it's no big deal" because "he knew the risks," you'll think a little differently. Your decision to put together a race is not one that you take on alone either. If you have a wife or kids, you're impacting and jeopardizing their financial futures because you were too damned lazy to organize something properly and safely. If you want to promote a crit, thats awesome, but don't shortcut the system because you think "it's no big deal."

chadteck

I don't think you understand the scenario.

I'm just one of the (former) participants of a training crit that was going on for many, many years before I even started riding or racing a road bike. There is no organizer of the event. It's a bunch of cyclists that decide to meet at a certain place and time. This group of participants is the "we" I referred to previously (in case you mistook me to be referring to my club or business).

I'm not interested in organizing or promoting an event. I've got a career and spend enough time training and racing. I'm just wondering how training crits generally work in other cities. If anything, I'd probably take some suggestions to a bike shop or club that has some long term interest in local participation in the sport.

Monkeyclaw

Phoenix used to have a sanctioned tues or wed race that counted towards upgrades, etc. I think it was $5/night with two races a night. When the Underground Crit started that AZTR is talking about, the sanctioned races stopped.

In Flagstaff, the crit practice is in a virtually-empty fairground. This seems to work well, but the number of people who show up is pretty small.

mattm

The Seward Park Thursday training crits in Seattle sound like what you're looking to do, except maybe a bit more organized.

They are not USAC-licensed, no official, just a guy with lap cards and a camera. Numbers (WSBA #'s or rental) are used, and (USAC) waivers are signed. It's a season series and points are kept for the top 6, but no upgrade points are given out for it. Three different races per night, A (1/2/3's), B (3/4's), and C (4/5's).

$11 per race.

And a (generally) closed road. This is in a city park which I guess makes it easier. So it's not officially closed but the organizer just puts up signs and hopes people have cleared out of the road by then.

A fun weekly race, I miss it!!

AzTallRider

It's pretty clear that there are two ways this is approached:

A. An organized race series. If you are doing that, you need to dot the i's and cross the t's because no matter what you do, you are accepting some liability.

B. As a "group ride". Around here, not all group rides are 'sponsored', and few (if any) of those sponsored by a club or LBS follow through on getting releases signed, even if their website says they require them. You show up, and if you are wearing helmet, you ride. Our Underground Crit is handled that way. There is always an announcement that it is a group ride, not insured, and that you are riding at your own risk. Would that hold up in court? Probably not. But then, signed releases don't prevent lawsuits either - they just shift the odds a bit.

pcaldwell

Ours is every Tuesday in the summer at a police training facility. Public, but well organized. A, B, and C races. $5 a head with USAC waivers as well as numbers. Rough course, but lots of fast fun and good training. It's helped improve my racing more than anything.

rbart4506

Ours is on Tuesdays, put on by a local club, permitted, you require a provincial race license (full or citizen I believe)...

It's held in a corporate business park with no police. We basically take over the right hand and centre turn lane. Forces one way traffic on the roads we used, which is ok since traffic is minimal. The club has volunteers who marshal and control any traffic. It's fully timed with chip timing, there's points and such..

Overall a very good experience, safe and a great way to learn to race.

$15 a night or you can buy a yearly pass...