Stupid question: Blowing up - Mental Toughness or Physiological?
#51
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And...
Don't underestimate the effect of expectations. What mindset do you think Nibali is taking into the next few days? Horner? They're worlds apart.
Don't underestimate the effect of expectations. What mindset do you think Nibali is taking into the next few days? Horner? They're worlds apart.
#52
fuggitivo solitario
i think he's fully confident, and if that hill ended 1km earlier, he'd have made the right decision. In a classics event, absolutely the thing to do as getting 2nd doesn't mean much more than getting 6th, and it's much better to see if you could stay with the leader to the end rather than riding for a higher position. But in his case, he blew up whereas the other riders who were dropped earlier probably rode at their own pace, caught up to Nibbles, and just went past him.
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Stage races are all about the long game, the longer the stage race, the longer the view needs to be. I've won or podiumed 2, 3, and 5 day events, and there are times when you live to fight another day.
Blowing up, to answer the OP, is just a phrase that, like "base", means different things to different people. What you need to know are limiters, and those come in a wide range of things mental and physical.
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I have found that it's difficult to judge someone's confidence level based on a few quotes picked by a journalist uttered by a guy in his 2nd or 3rd language. Given Nibali's history, and the usual mind games and fatigue level this deep in a stage race, I will give his mental toughness the benefit of the doubt. He's shown to take the long view during other GT's, losing battles but winning the war.
Stage races are all about the long game, the longer the stage race, the longer the view needs to be. I've won or podiumed 2, 3, and 5 day events, and there are times when you live to fight another day.
Blowing up, to answer the OP, is just a phrase that, like "base", means different things to different people. What you need to know are limiters, and those come in a wide range of things mental and physical.
Stage races are all about the long game, the longer the stage race, the longer the view needs to be. I've won or podiumed 2, 3, and 5 day events, and there are times when you live to fight another day.
Blowing up, to answer the OP, is just a phrase that, like "base", means different things to different people. What you need to know are limiters, and those come in a wide range of things mental and physical.
Very true. Taking tactical losses for strategic gains is what long distance racing all about and a Grand Tour makes that even more pronounced.
The press quotes were just part of the overall vibe. The other side was how Horner would dig into him whenever he got a chance. Being the aggressor is always easier than being the defender.
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Physiological, when your HR is 194 at age 46...your legs finally just give up....My mind always say keep pedaling, but eventually, you can't, implosion and 10 minute recovery after that nonsense.
#58
fuggitivo solitario
I have found that it's difficult to judge someone's confidence level based on a few quotes picked by a journalist uttered by a guy in his 2nd or 3rd language. Given Nibali's history, and the usual mind games and fatigue level this deep in a stage race, I will give his mental toughness the benefit of the doubt. He's shown to take the long view during other GT's, losing battles but winning the war.
Stage races are all about the long game, the longer the stage race, the longer the view needs to be. I've won or podiumed 2, 3, and 5 day events, and there are times when you live to fight another day.
Blowing up, to answer the OP, is just a phrase that, like "base", means different things to different people. What you need to know are limiters, and those come in a wide range of things mental and physical.
Stage races are all about the long game, the longer the stage race, the longer the view needs to be. I've won or podiumed 2, 3, and 5 day events, and there are times when you live to fight another day.
Blowing up, to answer the OP, is just a phrase that, like "base", means different things to different people. What you need to know are limiters, and those come in a wide range of things mental and physical.
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those are not typos. his HR was higher than his power.
this is not a 1-time thing for him, and he has been thoroughly checked out. his HR is just that high. goes to show how 220-age and other rules of thumb do not reflect the wide range of 'normal.'
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i met a guy in the past few weeks who is 56 years old. his HR during a 45-minute TT was 193.
those are not typos. his HR was higher than his power.
this is not a 1-time thing for him, and he has been thoroughly checked out. his HR is just that high. goes to show how 220-age and other rules of thumb do not reflect the wide range of 'normal.'
those are not typos. his HR was higher than his power.
this is not a 1-time thing for him, and he has been thoroughly checked out. his HR is just that high. goes to show how 220-age and other rules of thumb do not reflect the wide range of 'normal.'
#64
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This is a tricky one. Living in hilly country and being a flatland rider, I have a fair amount of experience getting dropped. There are two mental aspects directly linked to physiology. The first is the fact it's a bike race and not a life or death situation. The second is storytelling after the fact. Getting dropped is a temporary state of affairs made permanent by the physics of bicycle racing. There are limits to the human body. There are points where the muscles are not going to give any more than they are giving. The problem the brain has is that this state of affairs is temporary, while getting dropped is permanent.
During the event of getting dropped, your brain is doing trade off analysis. The moment the going gets difficult, your brain starts erring in the side of giving up because, you know, this is a bike race, not life or death. Certain brains of certain people can be convinced that the race is a matter of life and death, and these folks probably disproportionately make up the pro ranks of every sport. In sporting lore, this might be the difference between the star athlete and the journeyman. The journeyman is good, maybe on par with the stars, but their brains cannot be convinced that the game is life or death.
After you get dropped, after the race is over, the psychological effects continue. The brain is the ultimate storyteller. The events leading to getting dropped are temporary, the body is put in temporary distress, but getting dropped is permanent. So, to preserve the ego, the brain makes up the story that it gave up prematurely because it can withstand the shame of this storyline better than it can withstand the truth that the body wasn't up to the task. The former implies it is a problem that can be immediately fixed by changing the state of mind, by swearing that it'll never happen again. The latter implies that an entire year's worth of training effort wasn't enough to do what you wanted to do. That problem can't be immediately fixed (you'll probably fail in the same way again tomorrow), and it might imply you will never actually achieve what you want to achieve.
The fact remains though that there are physical limits to the human body. I am simply not going to will myself the ability to put out 500W for 10 minutes to stay with the little climber f***ers up a long climb. This is both the genius and the tragedy of the powermeter. It is brutally honest. It counters these stories your mind make up, but at the same time, takes some of the lore out of cycling legends. Winning isn't everything; the stories are fun too.
During the event of getting dropped, your brain is doing trade off analysis. The moment the going gets difficult, your brain starts erring in the side of giving up because, you know, this is a bike race, not life or death. Certain brains of certain people can be convinced that the race is a matter of life and death, and these folks probably disproportionately make up the pro ranks of every sport. In sporting lore, this might be the difference between the star athlete and the journeyman. The journeyman is good, maybe on par with the stars, but their brains cannot be convinced that the game is life or death.
After you get dropped, after the race is over, the psychological effects continue. The brain is the ultimate storyteller. The events leading to getting dropped are temporary, the body is put in temporary distress, but getting dropped is permanent. So, to preserve the ego, the brain makes up the story that it gave up prematurely because it can withstand the shame of this storyline better than it can withstand the truth that the body wasn't up to the task. The former implies it is a problem that can be immediately fixed by changing the state of mind, by swearing that it'll never happen again. The latter implies that an entire year's worth of training effort wasn't enough to do what you wanted to do. That problem can't be immediately fixed (you'll probably fail in the same way again tomorrow), and it might imply you will never actually achieve what you want to achieve.
The fact remains though that there are physical limits to the human body. I am simply not going to will myself the ability to put out 500W for 10 minutes to stay with the little climber f***ers up a long climb. This is both the genius and the tragedy of the powermeter. It is brutally honest. It counters these stories your mind make up, but at the same time, takes some of the lore out of cycling legends. Winning isn't everything; the stories are fun too.
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Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 09-14-13 at 11:55 PM.
#65
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^^ bravo. well put.
My only contention is that the better riders I know seem to care less about the race. It isn't life or death, it's a race to them. In my experiencing that attitude it gives them the ability to push to the edge, because they don't fear getting dropped. If they try and fail, it's just a race, but they aren't afraid to try.
My only contention is that the better riders I know seem to care less about the race. It isn't life or death, it's a race to them. In my experiencing that attitude it gives them the ability to push to the edge, because they don't fear getting dropped. If they try and fail, it's just a race, but they aren't afraid to try.
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Re: life and death - I believe those are essentially the core emotional cues that allow top riders to sprint so fast, dig so deep in the pain cave. "Desperately holding on to a wheel" is not just a metaphor.
I try not to call on that level of psychological stress unless I really have to... it's very painful and IMHO when you call on the lizard brain for these panic-driven superhuman efforts, it extracts a huge toll both during the ride, and, cumulatively over the years.
So I prefer to lie to myself things like "that guy on the front can't hold this up much longer" or "200 meters and the grade eases off" ... focus on clean pedaling and good breathing and being efficient... etc.
I try not to call on that level of psychological stress unless I really have to... it's very painful and IMHO when you call on the lizard brain for these panic-driven superhuman efforts, it extracts a huge toll both during the ride, and, cumulatively over the years.
So I prefer to lie to myself things like "that guy on the front can't hold this up much longer" or "200 meters and the grade eases off" ... focus on clean pedaling and good breathing and being efficient... etc.
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re: Nibali - mental toughness is weakened by fatigue... I got the impression Nibali was just worn - out and mentally done, tired of the suffering. I might've been projecting a bit...
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I'm not quite sure in the value of HR since I have power but I still use the HR strap in case I might learn something in the future. Still reading Friel's book so maybe it's in a chapter I haven't gotten to yet.
When I first started riding with HR, I would back off when I was getting close to my max, now I just removed HR from my display so I go based on power only.
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Yup. On a group ride last Saturday, another guy who just started getting serious about training asked me what my HR was. It was a pretty relaxed pace, ~20 mph in a paceline, and mine was 118. He was surprised, since his was 135. He's about 20 year my junior, and doing an excellent job of paring off the lard he's accumulated while building a very successful business. Differences in our ages and physical makeup, plus genetics, account for the differences. Like Ex, I rarely see 170 bpm.
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#73
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...
My only contention is that the better riders I know seem to care less about the race. It isn't life or death, it's a race to them. In my experiencing that attitude it gives them the ability to push to the edge, because they don't fear getting dropped. If they try and fail, it's just a race, but they aren't afraid to try.
My only contention is that the better riders I know seem to care less about the race. It isn't life or death, it's a race to them. In my experiencing that attitude it gives them the ability to push to the edge, because they don't fear getting dropped. If they try and fail, it's just a race, but they aren't afraid to try.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 09-16-13 at 09:06 AM.